Separate 10/25 Lockouts, same loot

[Handsylton]

Okay guys and gals, I'm thinking of posting this to the official forums when I renew my account and am able to do so, I wanted to come here first and see what the community at MMO-Champion thought of it before I pursued. From what I understand, the end game has lost a little of it's feel with the shared lockouts for 10 and 25 and this is my suggestion to invigorate the raiding community! Let me know what you think!!

"Dear Blizzard,

I was thinking about one of the issues with raiding that you mentioned when you decided to merge 10 and 25 man raid lockouts. If I remember correctly, your biggest reason for making this change was so that players did not feel like they had to complete both 10 and 25 versions every week to stay competitive with gear. You also felt that 10 man guilds were being punished by not being allowed access to high end gear, and also being punished for being in a small guild. People who wanted to raid only 25 man content were being forced to do 10 man versions of dungeons in order to badge farm and keep up with the normalcy of the raiding community.

Now, to raise my topic of interest, it seems as though there is a lot less to do in the raiding community now that only one lockout can be performed each week. It sounds, from the general concensus of the WoW population that the game has lost a little bit of it's fun factor. It sounds like the majority of people feel there is less to do in Cataclysm. I'm thinking has to do with the limitation of raiding each dungeon only once per week.

Some of the flavor of raiding has gone down since this change, as some people in 25 man guilds would like to be able to drop down to 10 man versions and have fun with possibly a tight knit group within their guild, or to do dungeons with just friends, rather than a large guild and raid group. Some people also just like to do 10 mans as a less serious endeavor, while still being challenging.

My proposal to you is that you separate 10 and 25 man lockouts once again, but keep each boss dropping the same loot at the same item level. This would solve a few issues:

1. This will give guilds who want to remain small and only do 10 mans the option to do so, WHILE maintaining the option of doing a 25 man pug or pugging members for a 25 man if they wish.

2. The gear being the same item level for both 10 and 25 man versions will make it unnecessary to do both versions of a raid per week. You have an equal chance in 10 or 25 man of getting the gear you want, and seeing the content.

Finally, a point that could make it feel like even less of a necessary evil of having separate lockouts. Make it so you only gain Valor Points for killing a boss the first time in the week. What I mean by this is.. If you decide to do 10 man BWD and kill Omnitron Defense System, you gain Valor Points for killing the boss. Later in the week, if you decide to pug 25 man BWD and kill Omnitron Defense System, you still have a chance at receiving loot, but your Valor Points are limited to one version of a boss per week. This way, people will not feel like they MUST run both 10 and 25 man versions in order to farm VP, but can do so if they want another shot at drops for the week. This would cause:

3. 25 man guilds will not be forced into doing 10 mans as well if they do not wish to.

I feel like a system similar to this would give the most flexibility to the community to choose which level of involvement they want to pursue without punishing people for not doing both versions of each raid every week."

TL;DR: separate 10/25 lockouts, same ilvl loot, VP for first version of boss you kill each week. No grind for VP doing both versions, and no feel of having to do both lockouts to maximize benefit if you don't want to, because technically, you aren't losing anything.

[phoenixbow]

How are you "not losing anything" by not doing both lockouts if both of them drop loot? How is that not penalizing 10 man guilds who don't have the people to run the 25 man lockout?

[Nudi]

It's valor points from raids, not Justice points..
anyway, I don't raid and haven't done since these changes (and long before) so I can't really comment on the feel of raids that you are all about, so I just went here to read your suggestion really.
I'll point myself forward to front page *goes on my merry way*

[Handsylton]

Because, like 10 man guilds did before, if they want to run 25 man, they pug people to do so. I'm speaking of not losing anything as "you are not obligated to run these because you had a shot at loot already this week, and you got your VP for doing the bosses you can do."

It's not like WotLK where you HAD to run 25s because they just dropped better loot. With the same ilvl, there is no penalty. And trust me, there are plenty of people who only ran 25 versions for gear, and if they could get their VP for the week and get a chance at top level gear by only doing 10 mans, they would never touch 25 mans.

[Wools]

Now, to raise my topic of interest, it seems as though there is a lot less to do in the raiding community now that only one lockout can be performed each week.

Being able to do both 10 man and 25 man the same week would mean getting gear even faster... And you say, as of right now, that it feels like there is a lot less to do...

[Handsylton]

Being able to do both 10 man and 25 man the same week would mean getting gear even faster... And you say, as of right now, that it feels like there is a lot less to do...

People raid for more time than just getting their character in top level gear. It will help progression in the long run, and give the community more to do. Did you ever think that raiding is more about fun than gear? It will allow much more freedom to the system without making it feel necessary to do both.

People were forced to do both in Wrath because of a flawed system before. Taking away some of the grindy benefits without removing the choice to do both allows everyone to choose how much they want to do. It isn't forced on us this way.

[Deleted]

No, this won't happen. I'm sorry to tell you that, but that's the way it is. If 10-man and 25-man had separate lockouts, any guild that is even a little serious about raiding would be doing both lockouts per week because of more loots = better progress. That wouldn't be their choise, they would be forced to do so to stay in the race for the kills. That is the reason why Blizzard merged the lockouts in the first place and I see no reason for them to separate them again.

[Jijek]

It's one of the reasons I hate Cata

I liked doing 10/25 man raids...

[Handsylton]

No, this won't happen. I'm sorry to tell you that, but that's the way it is. If 10-man and 25-man had separate lockouts, any guild that is even a little serious about raiding would be doing both lockouts per week because of more loots = better progress. That wouldn't be their choise, they would be forced to do so to stay in the race for the kills. That is the reason why Blizzard merged the lockouts in the first place and I see no reason for them to separate them again.

And that's part of the point. You can choose to do both, and if you are in a serious raiding guild, then yeah, you would. Serious raiders are determined to progress quickly and do fights first. It is still a choice, the player made the choice of wanting to be serious about raiding and progressing faster in a serious raiding guild. I don't see people who are serious about raiding not wanting to do both versions of a dungeon. I would do both because I am serious about raiding. Some people who are semi-serious would be happy doing the version they prefer and not being forced into doing both by losing out on higher level gear or rewards like VP.

Also, not feeling like you missed out on a bunch of VP because you didn't do both versions and got a shot at the highest level loot in the game means that you didn't miss out on anything.

[assilley]

The whole of last year i spent close to 5 nights a week in ICC, 10man progression, 25 GDKP(10man guild with limited 25man runs) and focusing on my alt to gear them as well. Had limited time to dedicate to PVP, and to be honest, for us to progress in 10man faster, we had to run 25s, it left us at a disadvatange of having to pug and hope that it downed enough bosses the get loot from. Plus kinda got sick of that place by the end of it.. at least now everyone is on the same playing field,jus tthat you are rewarded with more loots in 25 man. I dont miss the seperate locks, because at the moment with heroics as they are,the be grinding heroics,grinding raids doesnt leave much time to do other stuff.

[Yoijimbo]

I personally enjoy that some bosses are harder in 25 and some in 10 man

[unholyskipper]

The problem with this theory would be that gear would start piling up easily...You can easily do 6/12 with your guild on either difficulty without having much trouble. (speaking from an average guild perspective thats where most are at atm) Now they willl be able to do 12 bosses get all that extra vp and get all that extra shot at loots. In theory good idea but it wont be implemented becuase they dont like all these ppl in purps

[Krid]

Same loot for 10 and 25s isn't how it should be.

[-Zait-]

Yeah I kind of missed the freedom of doing both, I just don't see the point in 25m raids anymore

[Handsylton]

The problem with this theory would be that gear would start piling up easily...You can easily do 6/12 with your guild on either difficulty without having much trouble. (speaking from an average guild perspective thats where most are at atm) Now they willl be able to do 12 bosses get all that extra vp

You must have missed the part where you only get VP the first time you kill a boss.. And yes, gearing would be quicker, but you have to weigh gearing speed with community involvement. When people are saying Cataclysm is not fun and there is nothing to do, that speaks much louder than how many purps they have.

[Sylla]

People were forced to do both in Wrath because of a flawed system before. Taking away some of the grindy benefits without removing the choice to do both allows everyone to choose how much they want to do. It isn't forced on us this way.

If this change was used, I most certainly /would/ feel pressured into doing 25s every week. This would probably involve pugging people I can't trust as much as our main 10s group, and would be a lot of effort and pain trying to get decent people as well as wiping on easy bosses just to feel competitive.

Considering this is the exact reason why they were split in the first place... I doubt this will happen any time soon.

[Handsylton]

Same loot for 10 and 25s isn't how it should be.

The fact that some fights are harder on 10 man and some are harder on 25 man shows that yes, both forms of raiding are difficult, and should be rewarded in the same manor. 25 man guilds should not feel like they are the top tier of raiding, because, as it has been said many times before, there are fights on 10 man that are largely more difficult than their 25 man counterpart.

---------- Post added 2011-02-04 at 06:44 AM ----------

The whole of last year i spent close to 5 nights a week in ICC, 10man progression, 25 GDKP(10man guild with limited 25man runs) and focusing on my alt to gear them as well. Had limited time to dedicate to PVP, and to be honest, for us to progress in 10man faster, we had to run 25s, it left us at a disadvatange of having to pug and hope that it downed enough bosses the get loot from. Plus kinda got sick of that place by the end of it.. at least now everyone is on the same playing field,jus tthat you are rewarded with more loots in 25 man. I dont miss the seperate locks, because at the moment with heroics as they are,the be grinding heroics,grinding raids doesnt leave much time to do other stuff.

If you had other things that you wanted to do, then you should have done them. The only "pressure" you felt is put on yourself, as there is nothing required of you in this game, and your level of involvement is purely your own. If you want to progress faster, then you do more work to progress. If you don't want that pressure, then don't do both lockouts. Taking away someone else's freedom to do both is worse, in my opinion.

[Archmage Arugal]

You must have missed the part where you only get VP the first time you kill a boss.. And yes, gearing would be quicker, but you have to weigh gearing speed with community involvement. When people are saying Cataclysm is not fun and there is nothing to do, that speaks much louder than how many purps they have.

Honestly, I haven't seen anyone (in game, official forums, or here) say they have nothing to do in Cata. People are busy raiding, PvPing, doing dailies, heroics, archaeology, leveling alts, getting new achieves, farming, etc

[ildon]

And that's part of the point. You can choose to do both, and if you are in a serious raiding guild, then yeah, you would. Serious raiders are determined to progress quickly and do fights first. It is still a choice, the player made the choice of wanting to be serious about raiding and progressing faster in a serious raiding guild. I don't see people who are serious about raiding not wanting to do both versions of a dungeon. I would do both because I am serious about raiding. Some people who are semi-serious would be happy doing the version they prefer and not being forced into doing both by losing out on higher level gear or rewards like VP.

Also, not feeling like you missed out on a bunch of VP because you didn't do both versions and got a shot at the highest level loot in the game means that you didn't miss out on anything.

When something drops loot you can use, it no longer becomes a choice. People will not give up getting 50% more loot if it's available to them. The fact that you didn't even think to add a caveat like "you can only get a drop from the same boss once, whether it's 10 or 25" shows you really just don't understand how MMO's work.

As for "helping progression", it's pretty much Blizzard's job to gate or slow down progression so that players take longer to consume new content so they don't get bored and quit. If they want to help progression they'll just nerf encounters (which is what they have been doing since the game was released).

[Handsylton]

If this change was used, I most certainly /would/ feel pressured into doing 25s every week. This would probably involve pugging people I can't trust as much as our main 10s group, and would be a lot of effort and pain trying to get decent people as well as wiping on easy bosses just to feel competitive.

Considering this is the exact reason why they were split in the first place... I doubt this will happen any time soon.

It's your guilds choice whether to do both or not, you are gaining your VP for the week and getting your chance at gear by doing just 10 mans. I definitely think that having the same gear drop from both 10 and 25 man alleviates the feeling of NEEDING to do 25s, as you get your chance at top tier gear by doing either version of content.