Feral Tanks - LEGIT tanks now! But after patch, now what?

[Mammoth]

OK, so before the patch I had 33k armor, and now i have 44k. Which is amazing, not QQn here. And now that I take way less damage, I can reforge everything to exp/hit for threat, right? 'Cause while I had 33% dodge and didn't take a lot of damage, missing my interrupt on Maloriak or Omnitron sucked. Another thing is now I can easily tank the adds on fights on Maloriak without getting roflpwnd.

SO I guess my main question is, "Where to now?" Should we continue reforging dodge, or go for threat?

Also, I took half the damage the warrior and pally tanks took on Omnitron, Magmaw, Conclave, Maloriak and Argaloth, so yeah Druid tanks rock once again. ;lD

Dodge will always be the best stat for bears until the DR becomes crippling. A problem the other classes don't have since they can also parry and block. But the aim is the same, you're trying to reduce incoming damage as much as possible.

Having more armour might have reduced the damage you take, but if you're asking me as a tank how much damage I should reduce before I try to stop reducing it, my answer will be 100%. Having more armour definately does not cheapen dodge.

Theres a second part where you mentioned exp/hit. Since you're raiding I'm going to purely discuss raids. Exp here is a waste of valuable points. Make the dps chill out more if they over aggro at the start. Hit however is more debateable.

If they expect you to interrupt you want hit. My reccomendation is to get 2 hit trinkets and then put hit into your gear sufficiently to be hit cap when you equip the trinkets. So that when you're not interrupting you can use the tanking trinkets. But I would also suggest to your guild that a rogue/warrior/dk/shaman/cat would be a better interrupter. They should have gotten hit capped to fullfil their role. Why waste your valuable stats to interrupt.

However saying that certain fights like Nef need 3 interrupters. I tend to minimise the chances of a miss in these occasions by putting both tanks on the same mob, drastically reducing the chance of a miss occuring.


In short. Armour doesn't effect dodge. In raids, hit cap is only useful if you must interrupt.

[Bigslick]

But I would also suggest to your guild that a rogue/warrior/dk/shaman/cat would be a better interrupter. They should have gotten hit capped to fullfil their role. Why waste your valuable stats to interrupt.

Drop cat from that list, or at least move it a notch lower on the 'preferred interrupter' list. Hit is less valuable to feral dps than other secondary stats as well.

[Deleted]

If you need to interupt (only a 10man issue, if you are in 25man and being asked to be a hitcapped interrupter find a new raiding group) reforge to 8% hit.

If you need threat (remember the threat created the first 24sec doesn't count, cause that is the time you will have to build up your threat with the help of MDs and Tricks, if you can't sustain a reasonable threat per second after that you are doing something wrong or don't have the epic staff yet) reforge to expertize.

Otherwise reforge to dodge, until next tier at least (cause eventually the diminishing returns will be to harsh and you will have enough crit to keep your Savaged Defense up more reliably).

---------- Post added 2011-02-12 at 12:44 AM ----------

What i've done is get a Hit Trinket for the fights im needed to interupt, and never reforge out of hit untill im hit capped whilst wearing this trinket.

Personally I would advice against this. As it's better stats wise (provided you have at least 2 decent tanking trinkets) to just reforge the dodge on your gear to the hit needed then removing your tanking trinkets. The HS + Reforging doesn't take more then a minute or two, you can do this while the raid group clears trash.

[Gootgot]

But isn't Tia + fluid death out BiS trinkets for tanking right now ? At least on normals....

[Yohassakura]

Post Patch: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...3#tab-dmgspell
Pre Patch: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1...5#tab-dmgspell

His displayed armor in the character window went up around 9k armor, but his average damage taken per swing only went down by around 1,000 damage. To me this is proof enough that it was a tooltip clarification.

62,000 * 0.02 = 1,240
The 2% is an approximation for the armor (damage reduction VS bosses) that he gained. When I CBA to get out of bed I can give you more accurate figures if you want. Although I'd need to know what his armour was and what it is in the newer web log.

[Deleted]

62,000 * 0.02 = 1,240
The 2% is an approximation for the armor (damage reduction VS bosses) that he gained. When I CBA to get out of bed I can give you more accurate figures if you want. Although I'd need to know what his armour was and what it is in the newer web log.

Your math is a bit off, but you are half right. SOME druids did actually have a hidden buff of -12% dmg taken due to a BUG. For these druids they will not notice a reduction in damage taken, but for others (like me) this was a frigging sweet update ^^

As for the math: If you have 50% armor, and gain 1%, you have reduced the damage taken by 2% from your previous 50% armor lvl. Another example, if you had 99% armor and gained 1%, you have reduced the dmg taken by 100%, compared to when you where at the 99% lvl.

[Arielle]

Your math is a bit off, but you are half right. SOME druids did actually have a hidden buff of -12% dmg taken due to a BUG. For these druids they will not notice a reduction in damage taken, but for others (like me) this was a frigging sweet update ^^

Depending on your gear, physical damage would have also gone down by up to 1 to 2% compared to previous intake.

[Kagonos]

I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure my bear form AP is at the same base level now as it was before the patch hit. But yes, there is an indirect nerf to our combat AP in the form of reduced vengeance stemming from less damage taken through increased armor.

You're somewhat missing the issue with regard to the threat and the reduced AP. A group of players (believed to be those who were logged out either in feral spec, or more specifically those who logged out in bear form and feral spec) were inadvertently left with the PotP "buff" active, but not appearing anywhere on a character sheet or where someone may have noticed it specifically. You may not have noticed it because you were not a member of that group. PotP also increased bear form AP by 6% which caused a good deal more outgoing damage and subsequently larger shields from SD which is based off of our AP.

Since Blizzard did not initially recognize this as being limited to a small group of feral druids, their answer to the problem of too much DPS from bear tanks was to whack our top damaging moves; mangle, lacerate, maul... On top of fixing the ghosted PotP. If they had only removed the ghosted PotP, the bear threat and DPS would have scaled back to a more normal level and the nerf to our moves would have been wholly unnecessary. I believe the damage nerfs should be rolled back now that the 6% AP is removed.

I have been playing a feral tank since Kara. I have had times when aggro was pulled off me, but those times were rare. I know how to play my class, I understand the value of hit and expertise with relation to threat, I know my priorities within the bear "rotation." I maximize my threat. Right now, with the current reductions to bear damage, threat is not where it used to be. Not a huge issue, granted, but it is no question behind all 3 other similarly geared and played tanks in both the AOE and single target departments.

Anecdotally, I can tell you that on Argaloth, after my first taunt, I pop berserk and spam mangle with a 3 stack lacerate on and the waning seconds of a pulverize as well. Unless I'm mistaken, this is the highest possible threat scenario for a single target fight for a bear. The warrior tank sat there and auto-attacked. I literally gained no more that about 7-10% threat on him. Is it possible that there is a bug that I am encountering here, or has anyone else seen similar? Vigilance no longer transfers the 3% threat like it used to, it only resets the taunt (or at least that's what the tooltip states) so unless there's a bug with that, it isn't that.

[Arielle]

Combat Log Plox.

[Kagonos]

Combat Log Plox.

I don't have a combat log. That's why I said anecdotally. I wish I did, it would probably help the question of whether it were a bug and what buttons I was pressing and when, etc. but that wasn't the crux of why I put it there. I wanted to see if others had examples and I really do need to start running combat logs for a number of reasons, not the least of which would be to lend validity to my posts on these forums.

EDIT: and WTF is it with plox? I think it's my least favorite non-word!

[Bigslick]

Not a huge issue, granted, but it is no question behind all 3 other similarly geared and played tanks in both the AOE and single target departments.
...
Vigilance no longer transfers the 3% threat like it used to, it only resets the taunt (or at least that's what the tooltip states) so unless there's a bug with that, it isn't that.

I normally tank alongside a comparably geared warrior and have had no issues losing single target threat to him. Can't speak for DKs as I never tank with them, though I will say that on a night we had a pally OT in lesser gear, he was not pulling threat away from me but neither was he lacking. As to threat over DPS, provided that I either have a MD or TotT, or dps waits a few seconds before laying in full tilt, it has remained a non-issue for me despite my almost total disregard for hit and expertise (0.92% and 0 respectively).

As to vigilance, it doesn't transfer threat but it does provide the warrior with some vengeance based you the vigilance target's damage taken, which will result in greater threat for him provided he's not already vengeance-capped without that transfer.

[Kagonos]

I normally tank alongside a comparably geared warrior and have had no issues losing single target threat to him. Can't speak for DKs as I never tank with them, though I will say that on a night we had a pally OT in lesser gear, he was not pulling threat away from me but neither was he lacking. As to threat over DPS, provided I have a MD or TotT it has remained a non-issue for me despite my almost total disregard for hit and expertise (0.92% and 0 respectively).

As to vigilance, it doesn't transfer threat but it does provide the warrior with some vengeance based you the vigilance target's damage taken.

We can't talk about Tricks or MD since it's only going to be relevant in the opening seconds. The threat from both disappears after 30 seconds. I get tricks on the open of a boss every time. I guess, come to think of it, other than Argaloth there aren't many tank swapping fights that I've done where I might have seen similar behavior. He's the only tank I run with. Like I said, though, my threat isn't in the shitter, and beyond the opening seconds, it becomes a near non-factor, I acknowledge that and may not have explicitly stated it. It is a noticeable difference, however, and it may just be that I pay too close attention to the minutiae.

Stupid me, I looked at the spell on wowhead, and thank you Bigslick, I was unaware that vigilance conferred the vengeance at a 20% clip. That would explain the Argaloth fight, my stacks are falling off, his are not... That would make a HUGE difference... So forgive my oversight.

And I'm really not complaining, because I plan to stick with my druid and tank with him. I just think the damage nerfs were unnecessary following the PotP fix.

[Arielle]

I don't have a combat log. That's why I said anecdotally. I wish I did, it would probably help the question of whether it were a bug and what buttons I was pressing and when, etc. but that wasn't the crux of why I put it there. I wanted to see if others had examples and I really do need to start running combat logs for a number of reasons, not the least of which would be to lend validity to my posts on these forums.

EDIT: and WTF is it with plox? I think it's my least favorite non-word!

It's mainly to determine how much TPS you are actually generating. I have yet to have a problem with threat, even since the patch. That can only imply to me that someone is doing something wrong. The most likely culprit is the Rogues or Hunters are MD / ToTting the wrong target.

[Kagonos]

It's mainly to determine how much TPS you are actually generating. I have yet to have a problem with threat, even since the patch. That can only imply to me that someone is doing something wrong. The most likely culprit is the Rogues or Hunters are MD / ToTting the wrong target.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I can narrow it down to the Vigilance effect on Vengeance stacks. I'll test it again next week without Vig. Since I don't have threat problems otherwise.

[Bigslick]

We can't talk about Tricks or MD since it's only going to be relevant in the opening seconds. The threat from both disappears after 30 seconds.

My point on our dependence on TotT/MD (or dps holding off a few seconds) was that once vengeance is stacked TPS is not a problem without hit/expertise. Yes TPS would be higher, but it doesn't need to be at this point. I have no doubt that in future tiers where DPS TPS scales higher with available gear, we will see more value to be gained from hit/expertise.

[littlepiggy]

And I'm really not complaining, because I plan to stick with my druid and tank with him. I just think the damage nerfs were unnecessary following the PotP fix.

While that's true, it doesn't really matter.. plus we got most of the damage nerf back because of the PotP problem. We can still pull more threat than other tanks if needed but we don't destroy them in threat anymore. Tanked Argaloth and my Prot Warrior friend and I just attempted to rip aggro from each other rather than taunt switch and we could both naturally pull off of each other (granted it was harder for him =D )

[Kagonos]

How/when did we get the damage back with the PotP fix? It was a 6% AP increase that has now vanished (assuming you had it before) and the damage reduction, without looking it up, was 17% to our bear form moves? Did that warrior have Vigilance on you?

[bloodwine77]

I can only speak from personal experience as a DPS in a 10-man raiding guild. Our bear tank is less squishy now, but this threat generation went downhill quite a bit. Whereas before the latest patch the DPS didn't have to worry about yanking aggro, I find myself soul shattering and easing up on my DPS a little bit.

Our healers commented that he was even easier to heal now, though.

[Yohassakura]

Your math is a bit off, but you are half right. SOME druids did actually have a hidden buff of -12% dmg taken due to a BUG. For these druids they will not notice a reduction in damage taken, but for others (like me) this was a frigging sweet update ^^

As for the math: If you have 50% armor, and gain 1%, you have reduced the damage taken by 2% from your previous 50% armor lvl. Another example, if you had 99% armor and gained 1%, you have reduced the dmg taken by 100%, compared to when you where at the 99% lvl.

Well, excuse me for just waking up at the moment of when i wrote that! :P

Yeah, you are quite right, and maybe i didn't quite explain everything properly because of that ^ - i just skipped some steps.

If we take the typical 33 -> 44k increase that most people saw, that would be an approximate 5% increase in damage reduction.
(picture just for clarification, based off EJ math... http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t29453-c..._85_cataclysm/ - should be somewhere in there.)


If we use the armor% like you said; 51/50 = 0.02 (or 2% reduced damage), this will then be:

55/50 = 0.10 (or 10% reduced damage). so 10% of 62k would ofc be 6.2k, if you factor in that some people had the previous PotP ghosted, (12%) this makes a 2%~ (give or take, kinda tired) discrepency (which i was trying to point out before). Gear would also effect this, plus there's no other raid logs and such for a "true" comparison, although there would more than likely be variables in both cases which would effect the outcome so yeah, I think we should leave it at that .

[littlepiggy]

How/when did we get the damage back with the PotP fix? It was a 6% AP increase that has now vanished (assuming you had it before) and the damage reduction, without looking it up, was 17% to our bear form moves? Did that warrior have Vigilance on you?

Druid (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)
Starfall no longer exceeds 20 stars within its duration.
Moonfury (Balance druid passive) now increases Arcane and Nature damage by 10%, down from 15%. More information can be found here.
Mangle (Bear) and Maul (Bear) damage has been increased by approximately 10%.
Frost Nova, Tranquility, War Stomp, and Starfire are all properly scaled when used by or on a druid in Tree of Life form. The previous temporary hotfix which removed the ability to use War Stomp while in Tree of Life form has been reverted.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...ges-Blue-Posts

We didn't get it all back, but we didn't need it all back.