Heroics. Not just for heroes anymore

[Nielah]

Then.. that's not exactly "most" people, is it?

Is that Seinfeld in your avatar?

[Jimmus]

@Jimmus- Really? Did you even read the post? 0/10

Did you?

Whats this change done to the playerbase? Probably the most damage of all. You can see the screaming on the forums. One side says they are too easy and the other says they are too hard and guess what? they are both right. Heroics have to be easy enough for the less skilled to finish yet hard enough to give the good players a challenge. So its a mixmash of both. Forcing the good players to carry the bad ones is leaving a sour taste in peoples mouths I imagine. The runs can very easily turn into 3 hour long wipe fests where everyone is screaming at each other. Thats no fun for anyone. This current system take all players good and bad and puts them on a professional stage and expects everyone to perform at a professional level. Its like benching half of the laker squad and replacing those players with thier dads and uncles, 30 years older than them, and expecting all the guys young and old to run up and down the court at the same pace for the entire game. It just doesnt work.

Yeah, I'd say I read it. It's a joke, too.

[Rayzan]

"Heroics were never used to gear people for raiding" - what?! As far as I know that's exactly what they were for. Granted hitting 80 and going straight into Naxx could have been done but trying to get into every other raid post Naxx would have been impossible with quest gear. In BC you farmed hard heroics to get gear to raid. Before there were heroics in vanilla wow you farmed strat, lbrs, and other dungeons for blue tier set and gear before raiding. It was absolutely required. Idk where you're getting this idea that heroics are solely for the purpose of raiders having something to do during non raid times but you're completely wrong. Sure, they could be used for that but that is not the sole purpose. I'm thinking you might have started playing in wrath when you farmed them 24/7 for badges.

[Zecora]

With all the changes this expansion one of the worst imo was changing the purpose of heroics. Not only did it have a negative effect on the playerbase but it wasted a lot of the Devs time and resources.

(snipped wall of QQ)

Hopefully next expansion blizzard goes back to the previous model and leaves the heroics for the heroes.

So, basically you're butthurt because people YOU think don't deserve to do heroics, can do heroics. Cry me a river.

[Pfeff]

How many of these crying threads need to be started? Like, I read two paragraphs, then realize I've read this exact thing 20 times already

[paloalto]

In TBC, how did you play this game exactly? I'm damn well curious.

Are you forgetting that you had do to Heroic Dungeons to get attuned to be able to even enter raids?

Or did you start the game in TBC Patch 3.0 where attunements were gone, raids were easier than heroic dungeons and Magister's Terrace provided better gear than Kara, and you have just extrapolated the game from that?

It seems you're the one stuck in the end of TBC, to be honest

The entry level raid of TBC, Kara, was done in normal dungeon and quest gear. It wasn't until later raids that heroics became required, and even then it eventually just became a source of badge grinding. The fact that people still insist that it's always been this way at the beginning of an expansion is amusing, at the least.

I fully expect somebody to say that Argaloth is our equivalent to Kara, as it is easily completed at a sub 333 ilevel and faceroll at 333 itself. One boss equals an entire multi-boss raid now, I hear

And I feel bad for you if you were doing heroics trying to get the Kara key

[Abandon]

Yea right, it took most people 1 day to level to 85 and be completely raid-geared ready. (with "most" people I mean the top of the playerbase)

It's nice to know that you got completely carried by your guild or bought your character, since you obviously didn't bother levelling or gearing them yourself. Also, by "most people" you mean "the smallest group of people in the game"? Because "most" of the people who play the game are casual, and the top of the playerbase who would be rushing to start raiding immediately would make up a tiny poition of the total playerbase.

[lightofdawn]

They blew WAY too much of their development budget revamping the world.

I figure they did this because the next expansion will phase the entire world into the Emerald Dream. Too bad the players had to pay for it now.

dont think itll phase the entire world, you'll probably just have to go through a portal of some sort and itll be like a northrend/outlands thing with new zones and stuff

[Belize]

That's....odd. I always thought heroics 5's were to gear up for raids O.o even in TBC (Kara excluded altough).

[Velossa]

"Heroics were always meant to be something on the side for raiders to do between raids, they werent used to gear up everyone to start raiding."

Yeah, good luck with that. There's a reason a lot of people don't go from freshly squeezed 85 to Nefarian you know.

[Skyve]

Um in TBC you did normal modes till you were respectful (and could buy the keys for heroics, later it only required honored) then you did heroics, and then you did heroic Karazhan. After gearing up a bit in Karazhan (and on reputation vendors by doing heroics till exalted), you went to gruul. After being pretty much completely epic equipped you went SSC/TK.

[Jimmus]

It seems you're the one stuck in the end of TBC, to be honest

The entry level raid of TBC, Kara, was done in normal dungeon and quest gear. It wasn't until later raids that heroics became required, and even then it eventually just became a source of badge grinding. The fact that people still insist that it's always been this way at the beginning of an expansion is amusing, at the least.

I fully expect somebody to say that Argaloth is our equivalent to Kara, as it is easily completed at a sub 333 ilevel and faceroll at 333 itself. One boss equals an entire multi-boss raid now, I hear

And I feel bad for you if you were doing heroics trying to get the Kara key

Are you high? When Karazhan was the entry-level raid, you had to do a quest in order to get "attuned." That means without it, you couldn't enter it. Later, they changed it so you could go in as long as somebody else opened it, and later did away with needing that altogether.

If you were a tank going in non-defense capped, you got your head torn off. The best way to have gotten that done was through craftables, quest rewards, and heroic drops. End bosses of heroics dropped blue dungeon set pieces, as well as an epic piece. It wasn't questing > Kara > heroics > BT, by any means.

[volescue]

Personally, I am happy with some of the tweaks they did to heroics to make them slightly less difficult and tedious while making them just as unforgiving.

While most of you said in BC it went normals -> heroics -> raids, which I am going to assume you were for the most part dps, I remember having to get kara geared before I was finally able to tank certain heroics on my warrior without getting yelled at by the healer.

[Ultima]

It seems you're the one stuck in the end of TBC, to be honest

Got me there, I haven't bought Wrath and Cata yet!

The entry level raid of TBC, Kara, was done in normal dungeon and quest gear.

Just as 17/17 was done in Tier 6.
Just as 12/12 was done in Tier 11/333/quest gear.

It wasn't until later raids that heroics became required, and even then it eventually just became a source of badge grinding. The fact that people still insist that it's always been this way at the beginning of an expansion is amusing, at the least.

Why were heroics required, other than attunement? Karazhan, Gruul's Lair and Magtheridon's Lair provided gear with a higher iLVL than the gear you get in Heroic Dungeons. Why would you be doing heroics after clearing and gearing Tier 4 other than to get 2.1 Zul'aman and 3.0 Sunwell badge gear (if needed)?

BURNING CRUSADE
Normals 5s (88-110) > Normal 5s (88-110) > Normal 5s (88-110, Need Revered at first...) > Heroics 5mans (115) > Tier 4 Raids (Karazhan/Gruul/Mag) (125) > Tier 5 (25man only) (128-141) >*...

WRATH OF THE LICH KING
Normal 5s (187) > Heroic 5s (200) >*Tier 7 Raids (213) > Tier 8 Raids (226) > Tier 8 Hardmodes (239) > ...

CATALYSM
Normal 5s (333) > Heroics 5s (346) >*Tier 11 Raids (359) >*Tier 11 Heroic (372)

They never ever changed their model, if anything, they improved how they handle item levels because it was a mess in BC.

Nailed it. Well done. Silly thread = ended.

[Pull My Finger]

Heroics were always meant to be something on the side for raiders to do between raids

Stopped reading here.

[Deleted]

It seems you're the one stuck in the end of TBC, to be honest

The entry level raid of TBC, Kara, was done in normal dungeon and quest gear. It wasn't until later raids that heroics became required, and even then it eventually just became a source of badge grinding. The fact that people still insist that it's always been this way at the beginning of an expansion is amusing, at the least.

I fully expect somebody to say that Argaloth is our equivalent to Kara, as it is easily completed at a sub 333 ilevel and faceroll at 333 itself. One boss equals an entire multi-boss raid now, I hear

And I feel bad for you if you were doing heroics trying to get the Kara key

I agree the person you're quoting probably got the Tempest Keep chain mixed up with the Karazhan one, but the rest of your post is just utter bull-poop. Yes, Karazhan became a sort of Badge grinding, FOR PROGRESSED RAIDERS. Why? Because it was so much easier to do the full clear of that raid than to run several heroics in smaller groups. The major thing that caused this was that some of the Badge gear was BiS untill Sunwell, a huge screw-up Blizzard corrected in Wrath and Cataclysm(different emblems/points).

Argaloth is the Cataclysm version of Archavon. It seems your mentality(and the OP's) has skipped Wrath of the Lich King entirely. There's no Cataclysm version of Karazhan, because the raiding model is just so different now. The end-bosses of the current tier is much harder than Prince Malchezaar, so if you really want to come with that comparison of yours, it's the entire first raiding tier of TBC mushed into three raids, with added heroic modes.



Fact is, heroics have since Wrath been for gearing up for raids. It was only in The Burning Crusade, when the feature was new, that it wasn't used to the same extend. Why? Was it because the gear was so much better? No. It was because it was the first time Blizzard tried heroic modes, and the majority of dungeons were insanely overtuned for their place in progression(helloo Shadow Labyrinth).

Heroic dungeons in the Burning Crusade were difficult, but raiding was still rewarding better gear.

[Chaoslux]

If cata had followed the previous two expansions the model would have looked like this
normal dungeons (333) > 10/25 raids (346), heroic 5 man (end boss 346) > heroic 10/25 (359)
but with just one small change
normals (333) > heroic 5's (346) > 10/25 (359) > heroic 10/25 (372)
that totally changed why we had heroics in the first place and has not benefited anyone that i can see.

What the hell are you talking about?

BURNING CRUSADE
Normals 5s (88-110) > Normal 5s (88-110) > Normal 5s (88-110, Need Revered at first...) > Heroics 5mans (115) > Tier 4 Raids (Karazhan/Gruul/Mag) (125) > Tier 5 (25man only) (128-141) >*...

WRATH OF THE LICH KING
Normal 5s (187) > Heroic 5s (200) >*Tier 7 Raids (213) > Tier 8 Raids (226) > Tier 8 Hardmodes (239) > ...

CATALYSM
Normal 5s (333) > Heroics 5s (346) >*Tier 11 Raids (359) >*Tier 11 Heroic (372)

They never ever changed their model, if anything, they improved how they handle item levels because it was a mess in BC.

[MrHappy]

In TBC, how did you play this game exactly? I'm damn well curious.

Are you forgetting that you had do to Heroic Dungeons to get attuned to be able to even enter raids?

Or did you start the game in TBC Patch 3.0 where attunements were gone, raids were easier than heroic dungeons and Magister's Terrace provided better gear than Kara, and you have just extrapolated the game from that?

pretty much this ^. If heroic Dungeons (5mans) that offered better loot and where harder than 10man reg raids it would defeat the purpse of the reg raids

[Strakha]

I don't miss TBC heroics or running people through to get keyed for karazhan, that was awful.

Their system is fine, just the heroic content is lacking, they should have added more dungeons, I'm already tired of a handful of them, which is sad because WOTLK instances took like a year to get boring.

[AnarchyAo]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10376041/WoW...311_001119.jpg