Response to Greg Street's "Progress" Post.

[Herecius]

If they had delayed Cata until January, we wouldn't get to this point until next month, by which time Firelands would have been ready.


In before "BUT OMG WE WOULDA FARMED ICC LONGER". True, but sometimes you have to reset the cycle to get back on pace. That's what I hope they're trying to do now. While all you negative nancys tunnelvisioned on the negative points in my post, I also mentioned that the overall philosophy was getting better.

I feel like that would've been a pretty terrible decision, though. Delaying Cataclysm until January, that is. Tell me, which would you rather have, then: farming Heroic Lich King for 8 months (since if you really are in a 13/13 guild, I'm assuming you killed Heroic Lich King very early) and getting you and every one of your alts an Invincible, or farming Sinestra for 2-3 months, which is going to be the approximate amount of time we have until Firelands?

I really hate to say it, because I don't like posts that basically say 'if you don't like it, quit!' because there is nothing wrong with negative criticism, but really, if the game has truly become a job and you hate farming things to the point that after just a few weeks of farming, you are already bored sick, perhaps you've simply outgrown WoW and it's no longer the game for you. There's more punishing games out there, if you're into that kind of masochism. I hear a Demon Souls sequel is being developed.

[timmyotoole]

Many people here are missing the point. The OP is replying to GC's statement that hardcore raiders are "ready for a break", when, in reality, he's just saying that to cover the dev team's ass that Firelands isn't ready yet.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the majority of negative posts in this thread will be from people who are 3/12 normal modes at best.

There's nothing wrong with delaying a patch because the content isn't ready, the problem is lying to us about why it's not being released. We pay for this game. We deserve honesty from the people we give our money to.

No, no you don’t. You deserve what you paid for which includes a lot of things but you’ll have to point where on the box, or their website, or the ToS, “Honesty” is included as a service.

[bullseyed]

No, the devs aren't telling a "player when and when not they are ready for more content". They are saying that in general the playerbase doesn't seem like it has progressed enough to really justify introducing new content.

It's like a book publisher deciding to hold off on publishing a new sequel because the current book in the series hasn't had enough time to fully saturate. There's nothing wrong with doing that if they have solid statistical data for them to do so.

But like OMG if there is new content out there I just HAVE to be allowed to do it!!! There is no way I could control myself until a time where I was ready to raid it, I'd just fling myself at the boss over and over until the bodies piled so high the boss couldn't fight back!!!

The existence of new content does not mean that players "have" to go do it. I'd love to have something to look FORWARD to for once, rather than wondering when the grind will end. (I know, this is an MMO, the grind never ends).


Imagine leveling if you will. What if Blizzard told you that once 45% of active accounts got to 85, they'd make the level cap 90. That'd just be stupid, just make the cap 85, let people take as long as they want to get there, and as soon as they do they can start raiding. Tier to tier should be the same way. Raids weren't shut off until everyone got to 85, the people who got there first got to raid first.

[Prat]

It's actually really simple. They want to make sure that the gear that you've acquired up to this point seems meaningful. If you were to hop into Firelands next week and replace all of your gear then you may lose the sense of accomplishment. They put a lot of effort into the current Tiers and do not want to trivialize it just yet.

I for one am quite happy with this decision. Kudos to them.

[Tziva]

The existence of new content does not mean that players "have" to go do it. I'd love to have something to look FORWARD to for once, rather than wondering when the grind will end. (I know, this is an MMO, the grind never ends).

This is silly and not realistic, any progress oriented raid is going to move to the next tier regardless of whether they are done with the prior. Are they being forced? No, but it's absurd to stay in an obsolete tier to get gear that is subpar when there is another alternative out there. That means those people get to go back and see the content they missed once they outgear it and it's no longer legitimate content?

Or, alternatively, they could just wait to release things until it will actually be appropriate for the majority of players, and ignore the people crying because they have to wait.

[bullseyed]

I think the real issues is the WotLK mentality that make ppl think they need to move on the highest possible tier avaliable wether they are ready or not. In BC we farmed kara and grull and mag untill we were ready for ssc and tk then we farmed them till we were ready for BT and hyjal and so on, we didnt say ooohhh look sunwell is out and i hit 70 today i better be able to do some of it this week.

PS: BT and MH were available in game the day i hit 70, but i had a blast working ym way thru kara and ssc/tk and getting to them at my own pace. WotLK has screwed up the whole wow community.

This, which I said a few posts after you but before seeing your post. =]


So many other people trolling hard in this thread don't even know what they missed, unfortunately. People aren't exaggerating when they say that WotLK ruined the game, it really did. Natural progress by means of raid gear was so much better than artificial gating and patching. /sigh

[Relentless]

Releasing content at a pace to keep up with the best guilds should upset no one, as I said, unless the other people are jealous.

That's somewhat akin to saying that the author of your favorite book series needs to write faster because you're finishing the books faster than they're being written. The sun does not revolve around you and the elitist minority. They'll release the content when it makes the most business sense to them because to them, it's a career and they answer to stockholders, not forum whiners who toss around accusations of lies without any proof.

Play another game, go outside, watch some movies, or find something else to do with your time. Tossing unfounded accusations at the creators of your biggest hobby because you feel falsely entitled to something is asinine.

[Rahjj]

Oh hai there false dichotomy. How are you today.

Here is a ground-shaking concept, why not make both groups happy? The only reason why those two groups would have to be mutually exclusive is if the people who haven't finished are irrationally jealous of others. Releasing content at a pace to keep up with the best guilds should upset no one, as I said, unless the other people are jealous.

Does anyone else see the irony here?

Also, you can't make everyone happy. What, are you new to this concept called life?

[DionLight7]

I thought his post made sense.

If you think about it, there's already a problem with people saying smaller guilds aren't able to progress as much as larger guilds due do accessibility( or something like that). Allowing more time for people to catch up is a good thing.

[Zeniff]

So many other people trolling hard in this thread don't even know what they missed, unfortunately. People aren't exaggerating when they say that WotLK ruined the game, it really did. Natural progress by means of raid gear was so much better than artificial gating and patching. /sigh

I will agree with you here OP. I miss the days of progression, but unfortunately they alienated a lot of players from seeing endgame.

Even after attunements were removed from BT, a fresh 70 needed to go through Heroics, Kara, SSC and TK in order to even be able contribute to the raid.

[Deleted]

Going back to the days of having 1% of the population actually see the content in it's time benefits nobody.

There is ALOT of guilds clearing 12/12 normal mode,means they saw all content except sinestra which is heroic only optional boss.

[Merin]

I enjoyed TBC raiding as well.

You mean the expansion that was broken out of the gate for months on end then finished by being broken for months on end?

Yeah, good times.

Seriously contrary to popular belief, TBC was not just Kael'thas Sunstrider. TBC raiding fucking sucked in every way but thematics and Kael'thas.

[warcrimes]

I can sympathize with the OP despite the fact I don't even raid anymore. It does seem somewhat insulting for a game dev to tell the player when and when not they are ready for more content.

It's like your mom telling you what shows your old enough to watch.

the fact hes willing to respond to the moutherbreathers and babies that infest the forums is amazing and your insulted? most ppl should be happy he even cared enough to write something instead of bitching about it

[shadowboxer123]

Many people here are missing the point. The OP is replying to GC's statement that hardcore raiders are "ready for a break", when, in reality, he's just saying that to cover the dev team's ass that Firelands isn't ready yet.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the majority of negative posts in this thread will be from people who are 3/12 normal modes at best.

There's nothing wrong with delaying a patch because the content isn't ready, the problem is lying to us about why it's not being released. We pay for this game. We deserve honesty from the people we give our money to.

Ok, here is what he said:

"Let’s consider two extremes. If you complete the raid content very quickly and have Sinestra on farm and everyone has acquired their best in slot items, then you’re probably ready to take a break from raiding. If you worked really hard to get to that point, as many of the current “finished” guilds did, then you’re probably pretty happy about resting until Firelands becomes available. However, if that break point happens too soon, too easily, for too many guilds, then the raiding game can feel empty. Players run out of content before they are ready to run out of content, if that makes sense. Now let’s consider the other extreme, where a guild just has no realistic chance of ever beating a boss. This can be particularly demoralizing if it’s the first boss, but it can happen at any time. That guild might not feel like they are making progress. Many guilds are willing to put in a few weeks trying to master a new encounter, but if it gets to the point where they are wiping for months, there’s a good chance they’ll start to see burnout and thinning ranks. The sweet spot in raid balance for us to hit is that everyone feels like they can still make progress. Content that is too hard or too easy doesn’t meet that goal."

Two extremes. EXTREMES. Hypothetical extremes at that. There is absolutely no reason to take it personally.

He's not trying to cover anyone's ass, he is trying to explain ADJUSTING raid content. That is what his post was about. RAID DIFFICULTY. It was about all the raids, ones that have been already been released, as well as planning future raid difficulties.

[bullseyed]

I feel like that would've been a pretty terrible decision, though. Delaying Cataclysm until January, that is. Tell me, which would you rather have, then: farming Heroic Lich King for 8 months (since if you really are in a 13/13 guild, I'm assuming you killed Heroic Lich King very early) and getting you and every one of your alts an Invincible, or farming Sinestra for 2-3 months, which is going to be the approximate amount of time we have until Firelands?

I really hate to say it, because I don't like posts that basically say 'if you don't like it, quit!' because there is nothing wrong with negative criticism, but really, if the game has truly become a job and you hate farming things to the point that after just a few weeks of farming, you are already bored sick, perhaps you've simply outgrown WoW and it's no longer the game for you. There's more punishing games out there, if you're into that kind of masochism. I hear a Demon Souls sequel is being developed.

Negative criticism? You've been reading the o-boards too long, they've warped your mind. Me pointing out ways they could improve the content flow and referencing the time when they did things that way and how well it worked is constructive criticism. Saying "if you don't like it then quit" is negative, nonconstructive criticism.

Pretty soon these boards won't be any better than the o-boards if moderators here can't tell the difference... And I recognize I'll probably get actioned for saying that because oh em gee I dared question a moderator, but really guy (or gal??), take a step back for a second and ask which of us is being negative. (and I mean "us" from a collective ideological POV, not you versus me).

If you don't like the way the game is, go away == negative, nonconstructive
Hey the game used to be this way and it really would solve a lot of problems if you looked at it again == constructive, positive


Sadly the mentality of the community including the blues has become

"What he/she said doesn't support my best interests" == negative, nonconstructive
Everything else == positive, constructive


There is a place where the "hard mode/normal content" philosophy can coexist with the "multiple tiers are available go play when you're ready" philosophy. The problem with getting there is the egotistical mindset that WotLK fostered in the community. The hitch between the two was that if it takes a year to go from A to Z and player CDE joins with less than a year left in the game, they won't finish. That's why badge gear was invented, to try to make it so 4 months after T4, you don't have to spend 4 months in T4 to get to T5. The problem is they messed up the pace of badge gear horribly, which lead to the "omg I ding'ed 80 today and killed the LK within an hour" mentality.

[Herecius]

For the sake of argument and, in some ways, siding a bit with the OP, showing that I'm not 100% OMG OP WRONG, according to WoWProgress, approximately 20% of active raiding guilds have killed Nefarian on normal, in either 10 or 25man. I think 20% having gotten to the endboss is an ok time to be releasing new raid content.

However, on the other hand, Blizzard also counts heroic mode content as part of what they want players to experience if at all possible. 17% of guilds are 1/13 (Halfus), and then 10% are 2/13... and then 6% are 3/13... the dropoff only gets steeper from there. Many players are only just beginning to put a dent in heroics of this tier. The vast majority of them will not see or kill Sinestra before Firelands is released, but I think it's important that more than 0.14% of guilds get to that point.

EDIT: I do see what you're trying to say about the difference between negative criticism and constructive criticism, but I believe that criticism can be constructive while still being negative, you simply misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to say it's a bad thing. No reason to make a wall of text arguing semantics.

Moreover, there's just no workable way to release that much content at once. If you really remember TBC raiding, then surely you remember how horrifically buggy and utterly untested the later tiers were that were released at the start of TBC but simply inaccessible to players? Sinestra was buggy when Paragon was slamming their heads against it, but even that encounter had nothing on the almost unplayable state that some raids had in TBC. Hell, Kael was straight out bugged for month. That's the sort of mass chaos that happens if Blizzard were to release more stuff than they're prepared to. Throwing more money or more people into the development pool wouldn't fix that.

[bullseyed]

It's actually really simple. They want to make sure that the gear that you've acquired up to this point seems meaningful. If you were to hop into Firelands next week and replace all of your gear then you may lose the sense of accomplishment. They put a lot of effort into the current Tiers and do not want to trivialize it just yet.

I for one am quite happy with this decision. Kudos to them.

See, if Firelands is properly designed and balanced, you won't be able to hop into Firelands when it comes out next week, unless you had finished the current tier. Firelands would be out, but it wouldn't matter to you because you are finishing the content at your pace. If you truly wanted to finish the content at your own pace, then you wouldn't care what other content was available. Your real motivation is jealousy. You want to force ALL OTHER PLAYERS to finish the content at your pace, because you can't handle admitting that they are either better at it or spend more time at it.

One of you people supporting this position, through logic and reason explain why someone else finishing content at a different pace is a threat to you? Explain why you get to finish things at your pace, but no one else gets that luxury. Explain why everyone has to be focused on you instead of everyone getting their own little piece?


There is at least one strong logical argument against my position. I just want one of you to stop facetrolling the keyboard long enough to address it. I want to have an intellectual conversation.

[Qwell]

I hear a Demon Souls sequel is being developed.

My nose bled just READING that sentence. Brutals.

[link064]

But like OMG if there is new content out there I just HAVE to be allowed to do it!!! There is no way I could control myself until a time where I was ready to raid it, I'd just fling myself at the boss over and over until the bodies piled so high the boss couldn't fight back!!!

The existence of new content does not mean that players "have" to go do it. I'd love to have something to look FORWARD to for once, rather than wondering when the grind will end. (I know, this is an MMO, the grind never ends).


Imagine leveling if you will. What if Blizzard told you that once 45% of active accounts got to 85, they'd make the level cap 90. That'd just be stupid, just make the cap 85, let people take as long as they want to get there, and as soon as they do they can start raiding. Tier to tier should be the same way. Raids weren't shut off until everyone got to 85, the people who got there first got to raid first.

Unfortunately, you're not reading what they're saying properly. It isn't that players somehow lose their ability to control themselves when a new raid is released. The problem with releasing raid content the very second it is ready (that being earlier than they would like) is that older raids mostly get abandoned. With the exception of special circumstances that he noted (going back to finish your 4-piece before you get your new set), nearly everyone forgets about the previous tier's raids when new stuff comes out. How many people went back and did Naxx when Ulduar was out? I can guarantee you that significantly fewer people did.

If you had properly read my example, you would have seen how I explained that they're waiting for a certain saturation level with the current raids. They feel that the general population hasn't gotten far enough yet. They're trying to avoid ToC 2.0.

Now, this isn't to say that they are even delaying Firelands. If you had read anything that Herecius had posted, you'd realize that Firelands hasn't been delayed, but instead ZA/ZG and other things are being pushed forwards. Their timeline for releasing content patches seems to have a sweet spot right around 6 months. It has been 3 months and you are complaining that they are withholding content from you. Do you see anything wrong with this?

I think the funniest part of your post is the sheer irony in everything you said. "The existence of new content [on the ptr] does that mean that players "have" to [have it now]. I'd love to have something to look FORWARD to for once, rather than wondering when the grind will [begin again]."

[tjanson]

This, which I said a few posts after you but before seeing your post. =]


So many other people trolling hard in this thread don't even know what they missed, unfortunately. People aren't exaggerating when they say that WotLK ruined the game, it really did. Natural progress by means of raid gear was so much better than artificial gating and patching. /sigh

Agreed, I just don't think it fits into Blizzard's business model to release all the content at once. They're happier doing it in bits and pieces, but unfortunately, it turns progression into what it is today. I remember being the third guild on our server into Hyjal/BT, and absolutely thrilled to be so. I think it started going sour as soon as the focus went from "we want to design interesting and challenging content" to "we want everyone to see our pretty dungeons." The irony was that everyone could eventually see it all, but they had to wait until gear levels increased, or the place was nerfed severely.

You really aren't going to get anywhere here though. Half of the posters don't really understand what you're trying to say, and the other half doesn't even want to. It's not as if we wish hard enough, we'll have TBC back. :P