The League of Legends thread

[Deleted]

Lol. Even bad Lees can land Q>Q>E>E>R>W>W to deal tons of damage, and not die. And yes, he has energy to do this.

From my understanding Lees "skillcap" starts from "average tier" and ends at "godlike tier", while other characters start at "pisspoor tier" and ends at "great tier", equally bad play will have much greater chance to win as Lee than as Irelia

So you want all the champions to scale like that in same way? Lee is high risk-high reward.

Example: you ward-safeguard to enemy ezreal. you get E off to slow him. He jumps away with his E. You Q to him, land it, jump to him and kill him with kick.

Alternative: Ezreal E jumps away from your ward jump. You miss Q. You've done 0 damage and now you get kited. Now you have to 1. wait for Q or W and try again - and possibly start to run out of energy. Or 2 - flee.


Saying Q is easy to hit doesn't make much sense. Does that mean you consider it hard to dodge? IMO it's hard to hit, easy to dodge. If you pull it off you get rewarded.

It's not like Warwick or Irelia. Why would you ever play a skillshot champion if there was no reward for landing your skillshots? Everyone would just play Irelia because they can't miss their damage spells.

[Charge me Doctor]

So you want all the champions to scale like that in same way? Lee is high risk-high reward.

He is low risk-high reward champion, where do you get this "high risk" thing? He is one of the safest picks in LoL

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Except for the fact that Lee's Q is one of the hardest skillshots to hit, and if you dont hit it, well say goodbye to your damage.

His missile speed is quite fast, plus, it's spammable (11 seconds CD) and doesn't require any mana, you just throw Q, missed? Hit a minion, your energy is back.

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Example: you ward-safeguard to enemy ezreal. you get E off to slow him. He jumps away with his E. You Q to him, land it, jump to him and kill him with kick.

Or, you W jump to him, land Q, he shifts away, you Q again to him and finish him off with ult.

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It's not like Warwick or Irelia. Why would you ever play a skillshot champion if there was no reward for landing your skillshots? Everyone would just play Irelia because they can't miss their damage spells.

The fact is, landing Q is not hard enough to have all that free stuff from it. It's cheap, spammable, gives true sight, gives gap closer, gives shit ton of damage.

[Deleted]

The risk is - if you miss your skillshots you will do less damage than another champion that doesn't need to land skillshots. So there is a chance, depending on your relative skill, that you will lose trades, fights, objectives by missing skillshots. If you play Warwick you don't have the risk of missing skillshots.

Explain how he is low risk.

Edit: Nevermind you post one sentence at a time

The fact is, landing Q is not hard enough to have all that free stuff from it. It's cheap, spammable, gives true sight, gives gap closer, gives shit ton of damage.

That's not spammable. You're just arguing that Lee sin's skillshots take no skill. So I'll ask you for personal experience.

Do you play lee sin? If so, do you land these easy skill shots and win games all the time?

When you play against lee sin do you get hit by Qs all the time and die?


Everything good about lee sin has a significant cost. His damage, his mobility and his survivability.

[Charge me Doctor]

S
Alternative: Ezreal E jumps away from your ward jump. You miss Q. You've done 0 damage and now you get kited. Now you have to 1. wait for Q or W and try again - and possibly start to run out of energy. Or 2 - flee.

Now imagine that you are a Wukong, you jump in him, he shifts away, and that's it. You can't do anything. Same with all other assassin-ish fighters, they just can't keep up with Ez without him wasting his shift.

And now alternative, you are an ADC and face Lee, you are, for example, Draven. What chances that you will get away from him? Zero. He just ward jumps upon you, Q>R>Qs you and finish off with AAs.

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The risk is - if you miss your skillshots you will do less damage than another champion that doesn't need to land skillshots. So there is a chance, depending on your relative skill, that you will lose trades, fights, objectives by missing skillshots. If you play Warwick you don't have the risk of missing skillshots.

Explain how he is low risk.

Because he has sustain, at least two "get out of shit" skills, huge damage output in early/mid game. Not being able to land a skillshot is something very rare, you just close distance with enemy until you has 100% chance to land it, or land out of fog of war on unsuspecting enemy.

And you don't expect being initiator Lee (basically, getting all tank items and utilizing slows and ult while doing, well, some damage and being able to "execute" low health targets) and to do a lot of damage, in that case, you don't even care on who you landed your Q, you just use it as gap closer

You don't expect being able to land a long ranged skillshot when enemy is aware of you trying to land it, someone else initiates then, or someone else pokes down enemy tank (so you can utilize "8% of missing health" from resonating strike).

I can call LB being high risk - high reward champion, because you either get fed from early kills and proceed getting kills shutting down and denying farm for enemy important characters, or you don't win lane and you, basically, can't do any shit.
Or Akali, who either wins lane or loses game.
High risk - high reward is a character who has to go all in and get early kills or he will fall behind in mid game and will make 5v5 game 4v5. There is no risk involved in playing Lee, you can safely escape all ganks, split push, survive all teamfights and still deal damage to enemy without even building that much AD

[Deleted]

I can call LB being high risk - high reward champion, because you either get fed from early kills and proceed getting kills shutting down and denying farm for enemy important characters, or you don't win lane and you, basically, can't do any shit.
Or Akali, who either wins lane or loses game.
High risk - high reward is a character who has to go all in and get early kills or he will fall behind in mid game and will make 5v5 game 4v5. There is no risk involved in playing Lee, you can safely escape all ganks, split push, survive all teamfights and still deal damage to enemy without even building that much AD

All those things you just listed about lee only work if you land the skillshots, ward jump properly, manage your resources and make good decisions on when and how to use your cooldowns, if you do all that perfectly you deserve the rewards.

Also, totally disagree with Akali. With Akali you almost always get bullied in lane and lose. Then at 6 you try to pick up kills. She does high amounts of damage early to mid without a lot of gold. Still high risk-high reward but not win lane or lose game.

[Charge me Doctor]

The risk is - if you miss your skillshots you will do less damage than another champion that doesn't need to land skillshots. So there is a chance, depending on your relative skill, that you will lose trades, fights, objectives by missing skillshots. If you play Warwick you don't have the risk of missing skillshots.

Explain how he is low risk.

Edit: Nevermind you post one sentence at a time



That's not spammable. You're just arguing that Lee sin's skillshots take no skill. So I'll ask you for personal experience.

Do you play lee sin? If so, do you land these easy skill shots and win games all the time?

When you play against lee sin do you get hit by Qs all the time and die?


Everything good about lee sin has a significant cost. His damage, his mobility and his survivability.

That is spammable, they do take skill, but "amount of skill" required to land it decreases with distance to enemy, while "goodies" from landing it does not (aka Nidalee spear, it is easy to shotgun enemy with a spear, but it won't deal much damage), and he has all means to decrease distance between him and enemy.

Yes, i played him in S3 because i was curious, why everyone is so hyped about him and Udyr, Vi and Heca was banned. Landing Qs out of FoW or bushes was easy as fuck, and amount of damage i was able to put at level 6 was astonishing, it's basically 100-30% enemy mid. It was hard tho to land Qs on enemy who are aware of my presence, but then you could just run to him and wardjump>Q>R>Q him away from tower when fed.
When i play against Lee and see him ganking me, i just abandon line and stay under tower/behind minions.
When i get hit by Lees Qs (while being ADC or squishy champion) i do die unless there is at least 2 people defending me, if i'm an ADC on bot line and we get ganked due to lack of vision, he has easy time to land Q because we have to retreat and our movement is very predictable, and his range on Q gives him huge advantage in ganks over, for example, Elise.

[Deleted]

That is spammable, they do take skill, but "amount of skill" required to land it decreases with distance to enemy, while "goodies" from landing it does not (aka Nidalee spear, it is easy to shotgun enemy with a spear, but it won't deal much damage), and he has all means to decrease distance between him and enemy.

Yes, i played him in S3 because i was curious, why everyone is so hyped about him and Udyr, Vi and Heca was banned. Landing Qs out of FoW or bushes was easy as fuck, and amount of damage i was able to put at level 6 was astonishing, it's basically 100-30% enemy mid. It was hard tho to land Qs on enemy who are aware of my presence, but then you could just run to him and wardjump>Q>R>Q him away from tower when fed.
When i play against Lee and see him ganking me, i just abandon line and stay under tower/behind minions.
When i get hit by Lees Qs (while being ADC or squishy champion) i do die unless there is at least 2 people defending me, if i'm an ADC on bot line and we get ganked due to lack of vision, he has easy time to land Q because we have to retreat and our movement is very predictable, and his range on Q gives him huge advantage in ganks over, for example, Elise.

Don't see the logic to what you're saying. I think you'd realise his flaws if you played him more. Don't see how his win rate would be below 50% consistently if what you were saying was true.

[Charge me Doctor]

All those things you just listed about lee only work if you land the skillshots, ward jump properly, manage your resources and make good decisions on when and how to use your cooldowns, if you do all that perfectly you deserve the rewards.

Also, totally disagree with Akali. With Akali you almost always get bullied in lane and lose. Then at 6 you try to pick up kills. She does high amounts of damage early to mid without a lot of gold. Still high risk-high reward but not win lane or lose game.

Again, landing 1100 range Q is hard, 700 range Q is not hard, melee Q is 100% hit, that's why you don't try to land 1100 Qs on enemy who is aware of your presence and tries to dodge it. Ward jumping is not hard, it's like using flash, but clicking two buttons instead of one. Resource managing is not existent, unless you unload everything, you will have at least 100 energy + flurry up to regenerate it, that is one of the issues with Lee in my opinion.
Anyways, bad Lee is still able to land Qs, he is still able to escape by ward jumping and they still die due to their own fuck ups, implying that, you don't die unless perfectly executed 3 man ganks or you fail to do something

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Don't see the logic to what you're saying. I think you'd realise his flaws if you played him more. Don't see how his win rate would be below 50% consistently if what you were saying was true.

His winrate is below 50% because of hype around him and players going full AD when they need tank, it's because of bad players, not because of bad lee sin players. There is too much variables that determines his winrate, it's not just "this champion has 50% winrate, it means he is 50% bad". Lee sin favors safe play, he is good at split pushing, he is good at farming, he scales very well with gold advantage (aka getting in mid game earlier than enemy), he is very hard to gank or to bully out of lane. The part of infinite sustain and sheer amount of his mobility should be reduced and compensated with more useful for late game things.

I've seen two flaws with Lee, one of them - poor decision making (overextending, not knowing your limits, getting baited) which is clearly a player issue, it has nothing to do with champion. The other flaw being forced to be very tanky in late game (in really late game, when both you and enemy transitioned to it, not when you have 4 slots and enemy top farmed character sits on two slots). Being energy starved was purely mine fault (wasting energy on W>W when not needed), not utilizing spellvamp was my second fault i've made when playing him, missing R shots is third one and overextending was forth. It still doesn't feel that punishing to miss Q before fight started, and it's hard to miss Q when fight started, it doesn't feel punishing to miss R (not hitting additional enemies), and it doesn't feel punishing to waste energy (thanks flurry!)

[Drikkink]

And now alternative, you are an ADC and face Lee, you are, for example, Draven. What chances that you will get away from him? Zero. He just ward jumps upon you, Q>R>Qs you and finish off with AAs.

Imagine you are Draven facing an Elise. What chances that you will get away from her? She just Q-E-R-Q-E-Qs you and you die.

If you are in a position for a Lee Sin, or Elise, or Vi, or any jungler to use their gapcloser as a limited escape ADC, its not the jungler being OP with mobility. It's you being in the wrong spot.

[Duronos]

Honestly I can't get my head around why people think BotRK is better than Hydra on Shaco. BotRK doesn't have near the amount of burst that you need earlier on and hydra does everything so much better, you need to get gold for your IE on him and hydra gets gold faster so why anyone would go BotRK is beyond me. BotRK is a great item late game but early on Shaco it doesn't provide the damage hydra does. With that said j0ker's guide is spot on considering the dorans blade start with different masteries (12/5/13).

His reasoning for BotRK is for mid game objectives which for solo queue I don't ever rely on my team to do the right thing and think is completely stupid that you should. Yeah you can solo a dragon but BotRK doesn't seem justifiable for one dragon. I can solo dragon with BotRK.

With all that said, I've never been able to instagib a carry so fast with his build before, Hydra plus stattik shiv is solid, only to top it off with IE.

[Charge me Doctor]

Imagine you are Draven facing an Elise. What chances that you will get away from her? She just Q-E-R-Q-E-Qs you and you die.

If you are in a position for a Lee Sin, or Elise, or Vi, or any jungler to use their gapcloser as a limited escape ADC, its not the jungler being OP with mobility. It's you being in the wrong spot.

When you face Elise you turn on your W and dodge her stun. That doesn't work with Lees wardjumps sadly. Then you can throw her away with your E to buy youself time to get away from her. Of course everything everything changes with red buff, but anyways if you are in position for Elise or Vi to engage with their "major gap closer, aka Elise E(R) or Vi ult, they have huge cooldown on them and you have time to get away, implying they are not fed to hell to kill you in just on gap closer. Their others gap closer either short ranged (spider Q), or has a recoil (being slowed while charging Q on Vi). Lee don't have any limitation like this, he has full energy when he ganks, he has short CD gap closer, he does significant damage and has sustain if you try to "duel" him

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Honestly I can't get my head around why people think BotRK is better than Hydra on Shaco. BotRK doesn't have near the amount of burst that you need earlier on and hydra does everything so much better, you need to get gold for your IE on him and hydra gets gold faster so why anyone would go BotRK is beyond me. BotRK is a great item late game but early on Shaco it doesn't provide the damage hydra does. With that said j0ker's guide is spot on considering the dorans blade start with different masteries (12/5/13).

His reasoning for BotRK is for mid game objectives which for solo queue I don't ever rely on my team to do the right thing and think is completely stupid that you should. Yeah you can solo a dragon but BotRK doesn't seem justifiable for one dragon. I can solo dragon with BotRK.

With all that said, I've never been able to instagib a carry so fast with his build before, Hydra plus stattik shiv is solid, only to top it off with IE.

I haven't seen a single person who still thinks that BotRK is better than Hydra on melee. In terms of damage. If you need to catch up with someone, BotRK is better. But as you talk about Shaco, i doubt that "catching up" with someone is a problem

[Ergar]

When you face Elise you turn on your W and dodge her stun. That doesn't work with Lees wardjumps sadly.

When you face Lee you turn on your W and dodge his Q, and if he manages to land it somehow, you can E him mid flight. Hell you can even E him mid flight if he tries to ward jump you. I dont really see your point.

[Duronos]

When you face Elise you turn on your W and dodge her stun. That doesn't work with Lees wardjumps sadly. Then you can throw her away with your E to buy youself time to get away from her. Of course everything everything changes with red buff, but anyways if you are in position for Elise or Vi to engage with their "major gap closer, aka Elise E(R) or Vi ult, they have huge cooldown on them and you have time to get away, implying they are not fed to hell to kill you in just on gap closer. Their others gap closer either short ranged (spider Q), or has a recoil (being slowed while charging Q on Vi). Lee don't have any limitation like this, he has full energy when he ganks, he has short CD gap closer, he does significant damage and has sustain if you try to "duel" him

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I haven't seen a single person who still thinks that BotRK is better than Hydra on melee. In terms of damage. If you need to catch up with someone, BotRK is better. But as you talk about Shaco, i doubt that "catching up" with someone is a problem

Fully agree with you on that, I'm a huge advocate of Hydra on most melee's.

P.S. Your English is very nice but I'm pretty sure you're Russian, where did you learn such well written English?

[Charge me Doctor]

Fully agree with you on that, I'm a huge advocate of Hydra on most melee's.

P.S. Your English is very nice but I'm pretty sure you're Russian, where did you learn such well written English?

I know one guy whose main character is Zed, he gets both Hydra and BotRK

We had English language course in 2nd grade (we had 11 grade education school), this was enough to start learning English from video games (get a quest, get a dictionary and translate the shit out of it), then i moved to different school, and they had English course only in 7th grade (they taught exactly same things i learned from 2nd grade course), then I was taught English in technical school, but teaching at this point was plain memorization of new words and using them in speech or texts.
I don't think that my English is very nice, there is still a lot room to improve, that's why i hang around this forum.

[Drikkink]

When you face Elise you turn on your W and dodge her stun. That doesn't work with Lees wardjumps sadly. Then you can throw her away with your E to buy youself time to get away from her. Of course everything everything changes with red buff, but anyways if you are in position for Elise or Vi to engage with their "major gap closer, aka Elise E(R) or Vi ult, they have huge cooldown on them and you have time to get away, implying they are not fed to hell to kill you in just on gap closer. Their others gap closer either short ranged (spider Q), or has a recoil (being slowed while charging Q on Vi). Lee don't have any limitation like this, he has full energy when he ganks, he has short CD gap closer, he does significant damage and has sustain if you try to "duel" him

So Elise's stun is dodgeable but Lee's Q isn't? And ward range is about the same as Elise's spider Q, so again, if he's able to ward jump behind you, you are in the wrong place.

Lee gets 2 gap closers, one of which does no damage. Vi has 2, both of which do damage, CC in some way and are much easier to use than Lee's Q or E. Elise has 2, both of which are literally impossible to miss and one has an execute ratio. Elise's spider Q and Vi's Q both have very similar CDs to both of Lee's. If Vi uses both of her gap closers in a gank, you will likely die before you have any chance to react. She has no real need to gank again without the ult up.

Lee's ganks are easier to escape, since his ward jump is pretty telegraphed and his Q is a skill shot. He does have the advantage of being able to gank without his ult.

I just don't see what the problem is with him. Overall, his win rate in soloqueue is abysmal. In the pros, he's a contested pick but not really showing more success than Panth, Vi or Elise.

Even if you're a great Lee, if you don't get ahead, you are going to be virtually a kick bot in teamfights. There are other junglers and top laners that do what his kick does better (see: Vi ult). He doesn't get exceptionally tanky. He doesn't have anything resembling good scaling.

The only issue is that when a Lee gets ahead, it is very difficult to stop him, but that's true of a ton of snowball champions. Riven was like that (amazing early game, kinda meh if not fed) and they took away base damage and gave her better scaling. They also took some of her defense away, which I could see them doing. Reducing his base defensive stats might work. His Q and W need to stay as is, though. Just give his Q and E some more scaling and less base and take some of his base tankiness and it's fine. MAYBE you can increase his W and ult's CDs. These nerfs are basically olafing him.

Edit: Oh and change E to physical damage. Why the hell is that magic damage?

[Charge me Doctor]

So Elise's stun is dodgeable but Lee's Q isn't? And ward range is about the same as Elise's spider Q, so again, if he's able to ward jump behind you, you are in the wrong place.

I doubt that Elise will sacrifice her spider form damage to shotgun a stun at you, but yes, she can, and won't probably kill you in her caster form, as Lee can with wardjumping, ward placement range is 600 and can be boosted by throwing 1 point of mastery in a "support' tree iirc, making it almost full range of Lees W (and this kind of options i like, by the way). The thing i did when played Lee is wardjump>E, if he fights me, E again and AA, if he wins, use W again, if he retreats or has ~half health left, Q and keep attacking or Q>R>Q, as soon as he is getting away/debuff is about to expire, Q again. Lee has more means to catch up with you than you have to peel him off (by yourself, if it's 2v1 situation there is better chance to survive his ganks), he is no way near of Akali level of "sitting on target", but even she has to kill somebody to get her ult (both gap closer and main source of damage) up.

I agree on Vi, her ult ganks are near to 100% success, but without ult she is not that good. I don't see her getting nerfed, because she is not that hard to take down by simple focus fire.

Still, Lees' unreliable max range Q is 1100(1300), Vis' unreliable max range Q is 900 and Elises' Q is 500? i can't remember right now. And i feel like chasing someone down with Vi Q (on plain ground, without involving wall jumping) is much harder, because you slow down as you channel your Q. Her ultimate tho compensates it.

If you don't ahead as Lee, you are damage sponge and kick bot, like any other "support" jungler who is not viable because they don't have same gank strength, jungle sustain as Lee has (Nautilus, Mao comes to mind)

I do agree that Lee is hard to put down when he is ahead, and it's true for most snowball champions, but when Lee builds "glass cannon" midgame build and starts splitpushing and/or constantly ganking, he denies exp and gold from enemy team while his team can safely take objectives and farm, thus making his weak lategame irrelevant, and there is little to nothing to do to stop him. You can't gank him, you can't fight him 1v1, even 1v2 he can take out one of you and run away, or just run away.

I don't agree that his Q and W shouldn't be changed, i think they need to be more expensive to use, and to compensate it he should get another way to regain energy. Change to his E being physical damage was needed, there was no reason for AD scaling champion to have a magic damage skill that scales from AD. I've heard from a friend that it's the most significant nerf to "lane Lee", because people can focus on getting armour to negate his advantage in damage in early game from E

[sam86]

Lee can Q a minion next to u and get to u, he doesn't need to land on ur head, while if Elise E a minion, it is lost
Compare LeBlanc to Lee is really wrong, one is mage mid assassin and other is jungler/top/mid/sup... actually anything except APC
LeBlanc has high mobility with very low life, and her role is to be assassin and she can't do anything else, in compare to Lee who can go tanky, cripple enemy adc and even kick apc or the adc from enemy team to ur team in late game (and if he dies he did his job well)
Complain of LeBlanc is like complain that Veigar ulti can one shot most APC, it is his role and tool, and as someone said few pages ago Lee Sin is top tier jungler since his introduction way back, think s1 ? can't recall tbh, and someone said "he has to sacrifice gold for wards" that may worked before, but now ward item also give hp and free wards anytime u go base, so not a real lose anymore
As for his projectile, his Q speed is high, compare it to most skill shots like Morgana Q? you get the answer
The only "bad" thing he need high skill cap to master, but as mentioned before he is still very safe pick

[Drikkink]

Lee can Q a minion next to u and get to u, he doesn't need to land on ur head, while if Elise E a minion, it is lost
Compare LeBlanc to Lee is really wrong, one is mage mid assassin and other is jungler/top/mid/sup... actually anything except APC
LeBlanc has high mobility with very low life, and her role is to be assassin and she can't do anything else, in compare to Lee who can go tanky, cripple enemy adc and even kick apc or the adc from enemy team to ur team in late game (and if he dies he did his job well)
Complain of LeBlanc is like complain that Veigar ulti can one shot most APC, it is his role and tool, and as someone said few pages ago Lee Sin is top tier jungler since his introduction way back, think s1 ? can't recall tbh, and someone said "he has to sacrifice gold for wards" that may worked before, but now ward item also give hp and free wards anytime u go base, so not a real lose anymore
As for his projectile, his Q speed is high, compare it to most skill shots like Morgana Q? you get the answer
The only "bad" thing he need high skill cap to master, but as mentioned before he is still very safe pick

Okay, Q a minion and lose most of your damage potential. His Q has an execute tied to it as well. If he's chasing with it, he certainly wants to land it on his target. If he's leading with it, it's still half of his non-AA damage.

[Charge me Doctor]

Okay, Q a minion and lose most of your damage potential. His Q has an execute tied to it as well. If he's chasing with it, he certainly wants to land it on his target. If he's leading with it, it's still half of his non-AA damage.

That's implying that he won't have enough AA damage without Q to successfully kill a target. But in this situation, dropping enemy to low health and forcing retreat is still good IMO

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I wonder why Cog'Maw is not popular now? He is quite strong in early and late game, he is kinda, "kaitlyn-ish" in mid tho

[Xanjori]

No escape, too many champs that can dive past front line to kill him. He requires a different kind of team, one that is more traditional with a full tank and a lot of CC in front of him, todays meta is more assassins and duelers. With Jinx thrown in, just cos she kills towers super fast. Oh and that she does great damage with BT+LW.