Prot question

[killahgrag]

How much +hit and +exp is too low to go as Prot as far as being able to keep threat in something like heroics? I don't raid, so I know I don't have to hit the lvl 88 numbers, but I was just curious. As it stands right now I'm looking at 8% or so hit (draenei) and 20 expertise (with SoT glyphed and active).

Any help would be much appreciated.

[Deleted]

You can tank heroics with 0% hit and 10 expertise after glyph. Anything above that will make your job easier, but it's not required. I'm not actually sure what the caps are for a heroic level mobs, but I think 8% is too high. That's the cap for 88 mobs which you won't see in heroics.

[DerSenf]

What Raven said basicly, from personal expieriences however it became a bit tougher in 5-mans since 4.1, probably because AoE was buffed and DPSgear is scaling better then tankgear (yes we got Vengeance, but it doesn't build up the same way in 5-mans like in raids. Especially not of Frost DKs get initial Aggro with HB spam :P).

I usually start every heroic with two threat-trinkets (License and Eye of Rajh). If i see i don't need them after the first few pulls, i swich back to Mastery.

[Temsen]

I like to have hit and expertise cap when tanking heroics, so I just throw on some DPS stuff, it's not really needed, but feels good topping the meters. :P
6% hit and 24 exp should be the caps, level 87 is max in heroics.

[Fhi]

Hit and expertise becomes more important in heroics because you don't have the luxury of fully-stacked Vengeance, and you're mostly going up against groups of 3 or more. A missed Avenger's Shield is painful, especially if DPS goes right all out at the start (which you can't always expect them not to - unlike raids where your guild or raid members know how to give you time).

Personal anecdote, so don't take this as gospel, but just to give you an idea. When I had 2% hit and around 15 expertise with glyph, I was losing aggro left and right, and my AS missed too many times that it was noticeable. I have no trouble on bosses, but in Z heroics, the trash hits harder than the bosses. After reluctantly reforging some parry and doge away to expertise and hit, I have 4% and 19 expertise, and now I have absolutely no trouble with trash aggro.

If you're going to raid in the future though, you need all the survivability you can get via mitigation and avoidance, and you really need only 0 hit and 10 expertise to keep aggro on raid bosses.

[Seani]

Get spell hit capped (already 8% innate), then get 26 expertise anything lower than that you shouldnt be raiding in. The point of hit and exp is consistent threat not total threat.

[Deleted]

I did create a guide so people would stop asking the same questions over and over again but they ignore it....

[killahgrag]

Thanks everyone for the answers.

@bobty
I read the guide, and it's great, but I didn't see anything regarding how low was too low and wanted to be sure.

[zealous]

Thanks everyone for the answers.

@bobty
I read the guide, and it's great, but I didn't see anything regarding how low was too low and wanted to be sure.

It's a subjective matter, I've tanked 5 mans with 0% hit and 10 expertise for a month as an experiment. I had a couple miss streaks but never enough for it to be a problem my taunt button couldn't solve. Maybe a fury warrior got whacked once. Was a good lesson for him.

A friend who tanks on a DK however, was never comfortable below ~5% hit and ~12 exp.

Just decide based on your gear/playstyle.

At the start of every run I just tell people my mind is stuck in TBC tanking when dps were actually afraid of dying and had to work with the tanks (who of you guys still remembers people asking for Blessing of Salvation? :P).
And if they can't adjust to my mental disability, they should just kick me now and wait for another tank.

[Fhi]

I did create a guide so people would stop asking the same questions over and over again but they ignore it....

To be fair, bob, your guide is excellent, but it is geared towards raiding (as most guides should be). OP had a specific question about heroics, in which it is not stated in your guide that Vengeance is a problem.

[Deleted]

To be fair, bob, your guide is excellent, but it is geared towards raiding (as most guides should be). OP had a specific question about heroics, in which it is not stated in your guide that Vengeance is a problem.

That's true, sorry if I cam across a bit rude.

As Zealous mentions it does depend somewhat on your playstyle. For instance if you are pulling with Avengers shield and get a miss knowing how to react.

I would advise anyone even doing 5 mans to still focus on mastery, dodge and parry as there are still some pretty heavy hitting mobs. Especially in the new troll heroics. The fact they don't generally cause you stack vengeance that high though means you will learn to use divine plea for 3 holy power as well as avenging wrath to maximise your threat output. This is certainly a good thing for all tanks to do.

[zealous]

That's true, sorry if I cam across a bit rude.

As Zealous mentions it does depend somewhat on your playstyle. For instance if you are pulling with Avengers shield and get a miss knowing how to react.

I would advise anyone even doing 5 mans to still focus on mastery, dodge and parry as there are still some pretty heavy hitting mobs. Especially in the new troll heroics. The fact they don't generally cause you stack vengeance that high though means you will learn to use divine plea for 3 holy power as well as avenging wrath to maximise your threat output. This is certainly a good thing for all tanks to do.

/shrug

Just don't be afraid to taunt.

Even in heroics, ask yourself this, what's more effective and logical:

Telling your dps to chill for the first 5 seconds of a fight?

Or to gem in such a way as to sacrifice a crapton of avoidance/mitigation and possibly getting smushed by the boss due to the healer not coping?

Even if you get trigger happy idiots for dps and they don't listen to you, or you just can't be bothered to educated more mouth-breathers on your 12th run today, I've NEVER had any of them die on a boss fight if I didn't want them to. They would have to vastly overgear me to accomplish that.

Just taunt..... a dps can survive a stray boss hit nowadays, what with the current levels of stamina on their gear. It'll make them more careful in the future.

And that's in the unlikely scenario that you get a horrible miss streak at the very start.

[Velthy]

Theres seriously no point in having caps, its even silly to sacrifice other stats for hit n exp caps. On my tank i have 2% hit and 15 exp and its really enough, i guess i should try to lower em a bit.

Golden rule btw:
If u want less hit n exp, make ur chain pulls faster.

[rofltroll]

Get spell hit capped (already 8% innate), then get 26 expertise anything lower than that you shouldnt be raiding in. The point of hit and exp is consistent threat not total threat.

Lolwut!?! Threat is hard? Can't tell if serious....

For serious raiding you don't need anywhere near that amount of Hit/Exp., you'd be gimping your survival stats hardcore...

[Téuntjûh]

I think OP's question is still not answered.
Where we need 8% hit and 26 exp on lvl 88 bosses (to not miss), what are the exact numbers for heroic mobs?

I know we dont need any hit/exp to keep threat, but I can imagine some casual tanks can have trouble keeping threat in heroics. So what are the exact numbers to max your threat?

[zealous]

I think OP's question is still not answered.
Where we need 8% hit and 26 exp on lvl 88 bosses (to not miss), what are the exact numbers for heroic mobs?

I know we dont need any hit/exp to keep threat, but I can imagine some casual tanks can have trouble keeping threat in heroics. So what are the exact numbers to max your threat?

His question was not "what is the hit/exp cap in 5 mans?"

He asked what the community considered "too low" of a rating to be tanking heroics. Aka a subjective or objective value of those stats below which you supposedly won't be able to keep aggro.

To which most of us answered either:

a) Keep only SoT glyph and the unreforgeable stats. Use taunt and warn your dps to not be trigger happy chimps.

or

b) Experiment and get the number you are comfortable with. "Comfort" is very much dependent on playstyle

(how careful of a tank are you? how often do you chainpull to keep up vengeance? how good is your healer, can he cope with not using CC and therefore stacking vengeance? how comfortable are you with taunting on cd if needed? etc etc etc etc)


As to casual tanks having problems... I can honestly say that from the start of this expansion I never ever stacked hit or exp. I stacked mastery like crazy from the day I stepped into heroics, but, then again, I ran with a guild group most of the time.

Not that I really had any troubles in random groups though. Mind you I stopped raiding on my paladin when my guild dissolved so I never even started heroic raids on him in Cata, the highest my equipped gear level went was smth around ~354 I think.

[royals]

I noticed someone mention dk tanking and would have to say that I've never had a problem on my dk with only around 1% hit and very low expertise, rune strike is op for threat, yet as a pally having a shield and cs mis could be detrimental to initial threat, but overall for boss fights, IMO, none is rly needed, for 5 man trash, throw on some dps gear and rip that threat

[Deleted]

Get spell hit capped (already 8% innate), then get 26 expertise anything lower than that you shouldnt be raiding in. The point of hit and exp is consistent threat not total threat.

raiding with that much hit and expertise will make your healers HATE YOU.

do not raid with any hit or expertise if you can help it.
in a raid there will be enough tricks/misdirects to get you initial agro and you will get vengeance caped quickly(the time it takes you to get hit 20 times) after that everything you do will be decent agro.

if your worried about initial agro in 5 mans -> divine plea -> inquisition-> exorcism->frisbie.
this also means you run in with holy sheild already up as you gain it from inquisition.

[Rubert]

How much +hit and +exp is too low to go as Prot as far as being able to keep threat in something like heroics? I don't raid, so I know I don't have to hit the lvl 88 numbers, but I was just curious. As it stands right now I'm looking at 8% or so hit (draenei) and 20 expertise (with SoT glyphed and active).

Any help would be much appreciated.

I'm working w/ ~1% hit and 15 exp w/ SoT. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ubert/advanced

Ppl only pull off me when they are single targeting on an AoE pull, when they target something else other than skull. A quick taunt and all is fixed, but sometimes i like to watch them scramble.

I consider my build a threat/selfish tank, thus no raid wall (DG). Heroics/Trolls are a joke even at my ilvl / gear. I love vengeance pulling, but your healer must be on the same page!

Just FYI, its nearly impossible to keep aggro when you clearly were not able to obtain it. I like pugging sometimes to test my limits.
I do use a different prot spec for Nef and change some glyphs depending on the raid.