25man harder than 10man??

[Deleted]

Also didn't take into account the Chemical Bomb debuff that causes the robots to take double damage and the Power Generator buff that increases the damage done by 50% when people stand in it..

Both are considerably more effective with 17 DPS than with 6.

I bet you were not the brightest student in math class, were you?

[Deleted]

I bet you were not the brightest student in math class, were you?

Mid-high. Do you stand your tanks and melee DPS in power generators?

In a 10 man, it can be 2-3 ranged DPS that take advantage of the +50% damage increase.

How about 25 man?

[Deleted]

Well, we have extremely good tanks, in 25 man we used to tank them so melee could stand in them, but now in 10 man we really do not bother with it.

But now, lets take the numbers.

10 man omnitron hp = 41M / 6 = 6.83
25 man omnitron hp = 126M / 17 = 7.41

7.41/6.83 = 1.084 = 25 man requires 8.4% more damage per dps roughly ~

Now, lets say all your dps gets 50% damage from generators.

6x1.5 = 9
17x1.5 = 25.5

41 / 9 = 4.55
126 / 25.5 = 4.94

4.94/4.55 = 1.085

The 25 man players still needs to pull out 8.5% more damage then the 10 man players. ( the 8.4 and 8.5 are because numbers were rounded along the way ).

As you can see, 50% or 100% increased damage, it does not matter if you have 6 or 17 people ^^, it is still the same thing.

[Blonk]

Mid-high. Do you stand your tanks and melee DPS in power generators?

In a 10 man, it can be 2-3 ranged DPS that take advantage of the +50% damage increase.

How about 25 man?

Even if mathematically what you're saying had any relevance, which it doesn't, the enrage timer is so astronomically high that it doesn't matter. Omnotron is a survival fight, not a DPS race. Survival on that fight is much less hectic with 10 people.

[Deleted]

Even if mathematically what you're saying had any relevance, which it doesn't, the enrage timer is so astronomically high that it doesn't matter. Omnotron is a survival fight, not a DPS race. Survival on that fight is much less hectic with 10 people.

Irrelevant. Firefly's point was regarding DPS requirement.

[Chiasmus]

Prenerf Impossible:

10 Man Atramedes
25 Man Atramedes
10 Man Magmaw
10 Man Valiona & Theralion
25 Man Valiona & Theralion
10 Man Cho'Gall
25 Man Cho'Gall
10 Man Sinestra
25 Man Sinestra

25 man AC and Al'Akir falls into the crossroad since AC would not have been possible without extreme range stacking and Al'Akir would not have been possible without Paragons "Hey, lets leave half our raid outside the fight for P1".

I might have forgotten something, but as far as I know, the only fight that was 'impossible' in 10 man was Magmaw, but the 25 man was really only possible because of the kiting that was not intended.

See, alot of people forget this, but the first night that Paragon e.g. reached Cho'Gall, there were half a dozen nerfs to make him 'possible' The only guild in the world that currently face pre-nerf Cho'Gall was Paragon, after that the boss was instantly tuned. Same goes to alot of other bosses, I probably missed some boss that was impossible until the top guilds faced them for a few hours.

All of those encounters you listed, apart from maybe Atramedes twenty-five man, were all defeated before significant nerfs. Sinestra's difficulty was increased in between kills of it, not reduced. Magmaw was killed before the fight was redesigned by several guilds, and some extremely dedicated Korean guilds beat Atramedes ten man without exploiting it. You're the first person to say Cho'gall was tuned in between attempts, is that speculation or do you have a source?

Oh and to be on topic to the other posters in this thread, you cannot objectively judge if twenty-five man is a different difficulty to ten-man and vice versa unless you have done both. Even then, there are so many factors to consider that making such sweeping statements shows a lack of objective thought and highlights likely prejudices you may hold. Sure, it may be that some individual fights are easier on one raid size than another due to non-mechanic related issues (for example, Al'Akir and space constriction), but to state that overall one raid size is easier than another is just speculation being passed off as fact.

[Deleted]

You're the first person to say Cho'gall was tuned in between attempts, is that speculation or do you have a source?

There were blue posts on front page on MMO champion, wait I will try to dig it up.

Edit: Can't really find it now, but remember it was something with the shadow add regaining health by a bug, the fire stacks did not work properly.

If I remember correctly they also did something to the health of the adds.

[Blonk]

Irrelevant. Firefly's point was regarding DPS requirement.

Though I disagree with his sample of choice, let's take a look into an actual DPS race. Cho'gall, or more specifically, phase 2 of Cho'gall.

First, let's skip ahead to the actual DPS race portion of the fight (fight ends at 2%).

25: 175M x 0.23 = 40.2M
10: 55M x 0.23 = 12.65M

Using a strong-DPS setup, being two healers in 10 and five healers in 25, that leaves six DPS in 10 and eighteen DPS in 25.

25: 40.2M/18 = ~2.23M damage per player
10: 12.65M/6 = ~2.10M damage per player

Assuming the final phase lasts for a minute and twenty seconds, each player has to perform

25: 27,875 DPS
10: 26,250 DPS

This is over a thousand and a half DPS lenience for a 10-man damage dealer. This is also not taking into account the amount of deaths that would happen to a melee DPSer in 25-man due to Corruption: Sickness and crowding.

[Deleted]

Though I disagree with his sample of choice, let's take a look into an actual DPS race. Cho'gall, or more specifically, phase 2 of Cho'gall

ye, my sample choice were just because of lazyness. I don't really know the boss hp on the top of my head, those were just the 2 bosses which hp I could find the fastest

[Harsesis]

This issue with 10 man in T11 isn't so much the difficulty as it is not balanced with a 10 man focused group in mind. Many of the 10 man fights are very comp dependent. For example my guild runs a raiding roster of 13 people. We do not have a hunter. The lack of a frost trap makes several fights (Nef and Cho'gall for example) much more difficult than they need to be based solely on that we don't have a large area slow. Heroic Conclave and Heroic Dragons weren't even conceivable for us until we picked up a rogue.

[Deleted]

Yes, in current state 10 man is easier in 90% of the fights.

Most of the people that are going "omfg 10 manz hard" have usually never even tried 25 man and is just saying that because their guild is bad.

I have 13/13 in both 10 man and 25 man since we stopped raiding 25 man a month ago.

We pretty much one shotted every fight when we switched to 10 man, even got the achievement on sinestra for the first time.

I did both, cata on 10 and 25 man. And do you have any proof to back your claims up, because I switched to 10 man because it was more challenging for the individual player. Altho, that was way before they went a head and went rigger happy with the nerfs in heroic 10 man.

[Logbc]

Did we really need this thread again? It never ends well.

[Pannaika]

magmaw .

[Deleted]

This is over a thousand and a half DPS lenience for a 10-man damage dealer. This is also not taking into account the amount of deaths that would happen to a melee DPSer in 25-man due to Corruption: Sickness and crowding.

Less buffs, etc. Deaths on 10 man are also more lethal.

[Arrowstormen]

Wait, one of the first posts talked about "one shotted Sinestra and got achei".
Is this the work of a handy necromancer?

[Blonk]

I did both, cata on 10 and 25 man. And do you have any proof to back your claims up, because I switched to 10 man because it was more challenging for the individual player. Altho, that was way before they went a head and went rigger happy with the nerfs in heroic 10 man.

You see, this is what I was expecting out of 10-man raids, but what I've noticed is having equal responsibility in coordination with others having equally important responsibility of the same role, i.e. kicking.

I'm not trying to jump to conclusions or anything, I'm just all ears for what you have to say about it.

[Syatek92]

10 man is easier than 25 man, no doubt

I raid in a 25 man raid, there are definitely like 5 people slowing us down, causing wipes, missing interrupts, doing bad dps, etc
In 25 mans there is a higher chance for someone to fail, obviously since theres more people

If my guild took its 10 best players and raided 10m instead of 25, we would down content much faster than if we did 25

[Deleted]

Though I disagree with his sample of choice, let's take a look into an actual DPS race. Cho'gall, or more specifically, phase 2 of Cho'gall.

First, let's skip ahead to the actual DPS race portion of the fight (fight ends at 2%).

25: 175M x 0.23 = 40.2M
10: 55M x 0.23 = 12.65M

Using a strong-DPS setup, being two healers in 10 and five healers in 25, that leaves six DPS in 10 and eighteen DPS in 25.

25: 40.2M/18 = ~2.23M damage per player
10: 12.65M/6 = ~2.10M damage per player

Assuming the final phase lasts for a minute and twenty seconds, each player has to perform

25: 27,875 DPS
10: 26,250 DPS

This is over a thousand and a half DPS lenience for a 10-man damage dealer. This is also not taking into account the amount of deaths that would happen to a melee DPSer in 25-man due to Corruption: Sickness and crowding.

It's about a 5-6% lenience .. all it takes is a single missing buff/debuff in the 10 man raid to offset that. Not at all uncommon, there's usually -something- that we can't cover. Hell, one of our raids last week had no bloodlust.

[Riekul]

*disclaimer* I have only raided 10 man heroics!

My personal opinion is that the difficulty difference is not derived from dps or healing requirements, but rather from unique mechanics.

Interupting was very crucial in several fights in this expansion. If you must have 1 person in a 10 man interupt, that is 10% of your raid. Even if you have 2 required for 25 man, that is a lower percentage. And with Nefarion in 10 man, you must have 1 interupter per platform, plus 1 backup. This equals 60% of your raid. A 25 man would have to require 15 interupters to be on the same level.

Likewise, with Cho'gall's worship ability, 20% of your raid is mind controlled in 10 man (2 per worship), while it is significantly less in 25 (it would have to be 5 people to be equal, which to my knowledge it is 3).

However, when spacing is an issue, 10 mans suddenly become much easier than 25 (hello Al'Akir).

I think some fights are easier on 25, and some are easier on 10. No, the two will never be exactly balanced, and you really shouldn't expect them to be. The very small percentage of people clearing heroic modes should tell you that in general, they are not easy.

[Il Impiccato]

Yeah I agree with the sentiment that 25 is easier than 10s simply because a few deaths generally won't cause a wipe in 25 so you have more room for error.

Also just for an example of something I've seen. Recently did a 10 man run in BWD simply because we didnt have enough people to do 25s which was what our guild usually does. We have both BWD and Bastion on farm so we completely expected a face roll and for most fights it was, until Atramedes and we had 1 resto shaman and 1 fury warrior continually die to either being breathed on for ground phase or not running during air phase. They weren't new, and have cleared it before so after askingthem why they keep dying their respond was, 'I've never been targeted so i didntknow what to do'.

Mind you, obviously, they arent the sharpest tools in the shed but still. Really?