Breaking the MMOuld: Moving on from World of WarCraft

[Grable]

New MMO's need a unique combat system and sandbox enviroment.
Then even grinding can become fun.

[Sinister Knight]

After reading this, I did some looking a the sites for SeWo and GW2, and both look, well, amazing. And before anyone complains that X Game has Y Class that looks really similar to Z WoW Class, just remember everything traces back to DnD and various fantasy epics like Tolkein's.

[Rowen]

The only problem is that those games remove what makes current MMOs addictive. It's a matter of psychology and action-reward mechanics, and actually has very little to do with what makes the game fun or not.

For example, GW2 has a steady levelling curve. This makes the game better, but is a mistake financially success-wise. You want to increase the time between rewards and make them random if you really want to hook the players.

It's like a drug dealer that decides to sell carrot juice and bottled water. He may not crush his customer's souls into a pitiful shadow of themselves, but he's not going to be very rich either.

[Drunkenvalley]

Well, see. Eventually people tire of the old model. If GW2 manages to just stay interesting enough to make you maintain your subscription then no losses have occurred. In fact it's probably more profitable.

[Blznsmri]

So... have we had gameplay from GW2 yet? Does the game have anything but videos made by the developers? It's not that I don't like what I'm hearing... but I'm skeptical to how the game is being praised like the second coming of Christ with so little to actually go on.

*crosses fingers for GW2*

TL;DR - I like the ideas, but worry about praising GW2 already.

There are loads of gameplay demo footage from PAX east and other events ArenaNet's been to, both live developer footage and from regular joes.


OT: I've always hated that it got progressively harder to level in WoW, gaining a level never gave me a sense of accomplishment, it just reminded me that the next one is going to take even longer.

[jvbastel]

The reason why mmo games have a lot of grind in them is pretty simple. sub fee. If there's no carrot on a stick, why would people pay a subscription every month. So MMO-games make repetitive chores like raiding for gear, archaeology, crafting, farming, etc to keep you busy. A game like guild wars 2, being B2P, needs to get most of its income from the release, and further expansions. Added on top of microtransactions like armor skins, etc. This means they don't have to keep that carrot on a stick in the game, since it doesn't matter if the people play it every day/month.

I myself really don't play mmo's for the grind aspect. Heck I've even grown tired of raiding in wow because I stopped seeing the use of it. Raid for a few months to get all the gear pimped out, then 1 day later you're back to square 1. Even worse, if you don't play for a patch, you won't get in groups because you're an undergeared nab. I say begone, carrot !!!

[Drunkenvalley]

But grinding is no longer a carrot on a stick. And to be fair it hardly has ever been in WoW. A carrot on a stick would be reason to return, and promises of more grind sure as hell ain't one.

It doesn't matter how much you play the game if it's a monthly subscription, so even just having frequent, small events every month or so to keep people interested would be enough. Similar carrots exist to bring you back at least enough to pay your fees.

[Blznsmri]

But grinding is no longer a carrot on a stick. And to be fair it hardly has ever been in WoW. A carrot on a stick would be reason to return, and promises of more grind sure as hell ain't one.

I disagree, a carrot on a stick is a reason for someone to stay, as for grinding in WoW, Gear from heroics to raids to heroic raids, mounts and pets for collectors, rep and titles, and achievement whoring.

[Venziir]

Interesting... But I must admit, it sounds too.... Wierd.
Every class can do everything, no quests.. the word DYNAMIC(!) all over the place.... I don't know, to me it seems to much like trying to be something new, just for the sake of being something new.
I know I won't try it for various reasons, none of which that are hate, but still... I doubt it will work to be as DYNAMIC and such, as they claim.

Oh and also, why make an mmorpg, when you clearly don't want to make an mmorpg?
It puzzles me.

[Drunkenvalley]

I disagree, a carrot on a stick is a reason for someone to stay, as for grinding in WoW, Gear from heroics to raids to heroic raids, mounts and pets for collectors, rep and titles, and achievement whoring.

The carrot would be the end result, not the grind. >>

[Venziir]

The only problem is that those games remove what makes current MMOs addictive. It's a matter of psychology and action-reward mechanics, and actually has very little to do with what makes the game fun or not.

For example, GW2 has a steady levelling curve. This makes the game better, but is a mistake financially success-wise. You want to increase the time between rewards and make them random if you really want to hook the players.

It's like a drug dealer that decides to sell carrot juice and bottled water. He may not crush his customer's souls into a pitiful shadow of themselves, but he's not going to be very rich either.

Even if you payed me to, I wouldn't be able to agree more that I already do.

[ro9ue]

Most of the MMO community started with WoW, but those who started with EQ and moved on saw a huge change in the genre. That's what we are looking for now. Not a company to basically upgrade the WoW model - we need something new and fresh. The genre itself is young, and if grinding continues to be a part of the formula it won't be a genre I will play much longer.

I hope GW2 pulls it off.

[Blznsmri]

The carrot would be the end result, not the grind. >>

The carrot is the cause of the grind. That's why it's called the "carrot on a stick" model. You spend X amount of time grinding for Y item and by the time you get Y item, Z item which is better/ shinier/ flashier is out and you start another grind all over again.

[vizzle]

Sounds just like a very well articulated GW2 fanboy. Nothing to see here.

[jvbastel]

The carrot would be the end result, not the grind. >>

not if it's on a stick that's on your head.

The problem I've had with wow and like-minded games (rift,aion, probably TOR on release) is that they all follow the same model:

-Level to max by grinding quests/mobs
-grind dungeons/crafting/raids for gear
-grind new dungeons/crafting/raids for gear
-grind new dungeons/crafting/raids for gear
-Level 10 lvls more to the new max
-grind dungeons/crafting/raids for gear
-grind new dungeons/crafting/raids for gear
-grind new dungeons/crafting/raids for gear
...

There is no ending to the game, no "YOU WIN".

[Drunkenvalley]

The carrot is the cause of the grind. That's why it's called the "carrot on a stick" model. You spend X amount of time grinding for Y item and by the time you get Y item, Z item which is better/ shinier/ flashier is out and you start another grind all over again.

Yes. Grinding for an item is a carrot on a stick model. But grinding itself is the stick, not the carrot.

And with that said, grinding is not a carrot to keep you paying your subscription.

[Blznsmri]

There is no ending to the game, no "YOU WIN".

The only way you win at WoW is by turning off the game.

[Sj]

I wish they'd hurry up and finish Secret World for 2 reasons: so I can try it out, and so they can get started on the Dreamfall sequel already.

[vizzle]

not if it's on a stick that's on your head.

The problem I've had with wow and like-minded games (rift,aion, probably TOR on release) is that they all follow the same model:

-Level to max by grinding quests/mobs
-grind dungeons/crafting/raids for gear
-grind new dungeons/crafting/raids for gear
-grind new dungeons/crafting/raids for gear
-Level 10 lvls more to the new max
-grind dungeons/crafting/raids for gear
-grind new dungeons/crafting/raids for gear
-grind new dungeons/crafting/raids for gear
...

There is no ending to the game, no "YOU WIN".

And GW2 has this? GW2 has an ending, GW2 has a "YOU WIN"?

Lol, no. You can't have an MMO without repetitive content. GW2 people who believe that this MMO will revolutionize how MMOs are played are completely blind. Please tell me how you will win at GW2, how you won't be constantly grinding dungeons/quests/whatever you want to call it for better gear when new content is released?

[Blznsmri]

Yes. Grinding for an item is a carrot on a stick model. But grinding itself is the stick, not the carrot.

And with that said, grinding is not a carrot to keep you paying your subscription.

No, seeing the Carrot as the reward for dealing with the Stick is what keeps people paying subs.

It's called the Carrot on a Stick model because there's always that reward just in front of your face that you need to grind ABC quests/ dungeons to get that reward, however, once you get that reward you're almost immediately shown another, greater looking carrot to grind for.

It's how WoW has kept it's subs and player base all these years.