Kicked for dieing while tanking, healer 6k HPS

[Ralynn]

I'm surprised this has been mostly rage in agreement and I've seen very few healers speak up... then I looked at where this was posted and it makes sense. more tanks here than healers. This inspired me to actually set up an account to reply.

As a healer I can see what's happening on my screen. I see how life spikes and who's standing in something that drops them like a rock. I use recount to evaluate what's going on. Not DPS, but damage done, damage taken, interrupts, Healing and on who and a couple of other things. I probably know better than anyone else in my group why there's an issue because I also know the mechanics of all fights I do.

6k average for a healer at gear level is not bad for heroics or even early troll gear (with some spiking here and there). Healers who are healing at 10k+ and NOT in raids are healing REALLY REALLY Bad groups because there shouldn't be that much damage if the fights are done right. It's also likely you strongly out gear content and don't need to worry about mana usage which will not be the case for freshly geared players.

If you're blowing all cool downs and dying there are a couple of possible issues.
1.) You're standing in bad stuff. This tends to be the number one issue.
2.) Your healer is geared for content meaning if you do #1 and stand in bad stuff they simply can't keep up because being at gear level does not mean bad and good tanks know this. (It drives me nuts when someone compliments me on something and it was simply a matter of being op'd for content and people disregarding mechanics, not actual skill)
3.) DPS is standing in bad stuff and the healer is stupidly keeping them alive reducing their ability to heal you. (also a common problem alleviated by out gearing content)
4.) The healer is actually bad/has lag/has real life.

If a group kicks you I tend to believe it's #1 or an amazingly unintelligent group. Based on my experience, very few people actually know mechanics of ANY heroic fights and ALL try to OP it. A group is considered good if they have really cool powerful gear and bad if their gear requires actually obeying mechanics. Fact of the matter is the bad players are the ones standing in bad(ironically they are sometimes those OP players who should know better but don't) not those in the lesser gear, but pretty numbers don't show that unless people look at damage taken/interrupts/self heals... which they seldom do.

For those stating healers carry groups... did you actually do content at gear level? I ask because I have four healing classes. Some are clearly better than others for five man and regardless of this my experience has been that DPS is the most important class and I actually take the extended wait time now because groups run smoother when I dps. Why?

1.) If they stay out of bad stuff they reduce a HUGE strain on the healer allowing him to do his job. Healers tend to do it anyway because they can see on their screen when they're being dumb. Not always but more likely.
2.) Interrupts. If a good dps is using their interrupt then large amounts of avoidable damage can be avoided... and healer strain is reduced.
3.) Correct Targeting. If a good dps correctly targets the tank doesn't lose aggro, the dps doesn't pull, and the strain on the healer is reduced. Also... if the group is at gear level... then the dps doesn't break the cc that's required. (most groups seem op now).
4.) Big dps means things die fast. Good dps get past gear check/skill check bosses and also speeds up encounter reducing the chance the healer runs out of mana regardless of being "good" or "bad" or "not op'd"
5.) Less healer strain from healing dps means that the healer can now carry a bad tank (of which there are many because they want to que faster but know nothing about the instance and are obnoxious instead of asking and rage quit after pulling stupid number of mobs without looking at healers gear/ability to OP content).
6.) Many dps can self heal and GOOD dps will apply a self heal/damage prevention at times of healer strain. I have yet to play a class where it was hugely detrimental. Gift of the Naru is amazing for those with draeni, but it's very very VERY rarely used.
7.) Tanks generally have more responsibility and the tanks that took the time to learn mechanics are good tanks. Generally seem to run into quite a few good tanks and healers but DPS is almost always bad.... hence making good dps much much more valuable due to their rarity.
8.) Good dps recognizes what debuff they can apply that isn't in the group that will reduce strain on healer even if it slightly drops dps and they recognize when to use it and when to ramp up the dps and finish the kill.

Until a healer has gear that significantly allows them to be OP to content, healer mana matters. DPS that respect this fact can actually have greater impact on a group than the tank or healer. It's one of the reason I've come to dislike healing these days. I absolutely HATE being reliant on others to do their job without greatly effecting change. WotLK I could do amazing things to carry bad groups even at gear level and actually undergear level (snuck into those 219 dungeons in ilvl 200 gear by buying and selling gear back. I only did it once because dear god it was painful, but I did it without wiping on my druid) Cata, I'm still more limited than I'd like until I OP content on the healer. If tanks can interrupt and obey mechanics they too can have a nice impact but it's still dps being smart that seems to make more of a difference.

[Hustle8]

Just want to vent a bit.

Are people actually this retarded?
Kicking the tank cause he died while Last Stand, Enraged Regen and 1 Trinket were up and healer was dpong 5769 HPS.
Really? I mean, fucking really?

I waste my god damn time carrying groups for the PvE Call to Arms and I get fucking kicked for this!?

Fuck you blizzard, no, fuck you, I hope queues go back to 2 hours, so the sorry ass 6k HPS healers and 4k DPS in zul gurub rot the fuck away from me.

If you were 'carrying' the group you wouldn't have died with cooldowns up, clearly you aren't too geared. Though you think and talk like you are.

[Lilija]

I'm surprised this has been mostly rage in agreement and I've seen very few healers speak up... then I looked at where this was posted and it makes sense. more tanks here than healers. This inspired me to actually set up an account to reply.

As a healer I can see what's happening on my screen. I see how life spikes and who's standing in something that drops them like a rock. I use recount to evaluate what's going on. Not DPS, but damage done, damage taken, interrupts, Healing and on who and a couple of other things. I probably know better than anyone else in my group why there's an issue because I also know the mechanics of all fights I do.

6k average for a healer at gear level is not bad for heroics or even early troll gear (with some spiking here and there). Healers who are healing at 10k+ and NOT in raids are healing REALLY REALLY Bad groups because there shouldn't be that much damage if the fights are done right. It's also likely you strongly out gear content and don't need to worry about mana usage which will not be the case for freshly geared players.

If you're blowing all cool downs and dying there are a couple of possible issues.
1.) You're standing in bad stuff. This tends to be the number one issue.
2.) Your healer is geared for content meaning if you do #1 and stand in bad stuff they simply can't keep up because being at gear level does not mean bad and good tanks know this. (It drives me nuts when someone compliments me on something and it was simply a matter of being op'd for content and people disregarding mechanics, not actual skill)
3.) DPS is standing in bad stuff and the healer is stupidly keeping them alive reducing their ability to heal you. (also a common problem alleviated by out gearing content)
4.) The healer is actually bad/has lag/has real life.

If a group kicks you I tend to believe it's #1 or an amazingly unintelligent group. Based on my experience, very few people actually know mechanics of ANY heroic fights and ALL try to OP it. A group is considered good if they have really cool powerful gear and bad if their gear requires actually obeying mechanics. Fact of the matter is the bad players are the ones standing in bad(ironically they are sometimes those OP players who should know better but don't) not those in the lesser gear, but pretty numbers don't show that unless people look at damage taken/interrupts/self heals... which they seldom do.

For those stating healers carry groups... did you actually do content at gear level? I ask because I have four healing classes. Some are clearly better than others for five man and regardless of this my experience has been that DPS is the most important class and I actually take the extended wait time now because groups run smoother when I dps. Why?

1.) If they stay out of bad stuff they reduce a HUGE strain on the healer allowing him to do his job. Healers tend to do it anyway because they can see on their screen when they're being dumb. Not always but more likely.
2.) Interrupts. If a good dps is using their interrupt then large amounts of avoidable damage can be avoided... and healer strain is reduced.
3.) Correct Targeting. If a good dps correctly targets the tank doesn't lose aggro, the dps doesn't pull, and the strain on the healer is reduced. Also... if the group is at gear level... then the dps doesn't break the cc that's required. (most groups seem op now).
4.) Big dps means things die fast. Good dps get past gear check/skill check bosses and also speeds up encounter reducing the chance the healer runs out of mana regardless of being "good" or "bad" or "not op'd"
5.) Less healer strain from healing dps means that the healer can now carry a bad tank (of which there are many because they want to que faster but know nothing about the instance and are obnoxious instead of asking and rage quit after pulling stupid number of mobs without looking at healers gear/ability to OP content).
6.) Many dps can self heal and GOOD dps will apply a self heal/damage prevention at times of healer strain. I have yet to play a class where it was hugely detrimental. Gift of the Naru is amazing for those with draeni, but it's very very VERY rarely used.
7.) Tanks generally have more responsibility and the tanks that took the time to learn mechanics are good tanks. Generally seem to run into quite a few good tanks and healers but DPS is almost always bad.... hence making good dps much much more valuable due to their rarity.
8.) Good dps recognizes what debuff they can apply that isn't in the group that will reduce strain on healer even if it slightly drops dps and they recognize when to use it and when to ramp up the dps and finish the kill.

Until a healer has gear that significantly allows them to be OP to content, healer mana matters. DPS that respect this fact can actually have greater impact on a group than the tank or healer. It's one of the reason I've come to dislike healing these days. I absolutely HATE being reliant on others to do their job without greatly effecting change. WotLK I could do amazing things to carry bad groups even at gear level and actually undergear level (snuck into those 219 dungeons in ilvl 200 gear by buying and selling gear back. I only did it once because dear god it was painful, but I did it without wiping on my druid) Cata, I'm still more limited than I'd like until I OP content on the healer. If tanks can interrupt and obey mechanics they too can have a nice impact but it's still dps being smart that seems to make more of a difference.

Really nice post.

Anyway, as for disliking healing due to relying on others. I myself if I see people doing stupid things I just let them died. For example, if tank pulls when I'm obviously not ready (0 mana) he is on his own. If DPS stands in something they should not (melee standing in boss' consecration will not receive a heal from me unless I see them moving from it) I know it's mean but funny enough noone ever kicked me for that. Most people recognize stupid deaths now. Sure, from time to time I get some bitching from people who don't know boss mechanics but usually most of the group takes my side.

[Malishuss]

Healer here, and i to feel your pain. The other day i was just trying to help my brother gear an alt in a heroic. We had other RL friend with us. The tank made a bad pull in stonecore. I popped all of my CD and when the tank died recount had me at 18k hps. My bro, other friend and i lived(we were all in vent together) they started lol in vent. I asked what the hell was so funny? Then they said there was a vote to kick me. I was so mad, I put big numbers as far as heals go, did not wipe. After we did finish the tank left asap. The other dps asked if we want to run an other one. I am almost in full epics and the tank that was rocking blues and greens wanted to kick me, what bs. So it can go both ways man i did not get kick but may have if there would not have been 3 of us together.

[Bohumil]

I heard cry babies don't carry groups...

HINT: you are the cry baby



Oh, and for your information, I sometimes think, as a DPS, that I carry my group must be my skillzors!!!
Just take it and move on. Bad things happen, don't need to write about them every time.

i am a dpser and i feel like i carry groups 90% of the time when i pug. which for the record i rarely do cause i hate ass hats. regardless of their class. most of the time i refuse to run without 4 out of 5 people in the group are guildies. it just makes things more simple. i once thought it was impossible for a group to carry a tank through a zandalari... till one day a group of 4 from my guild group and a tank randomed into the group with us. this tank was BAD. undergeared (in mostly pvp gear mind you) ungemmed, not a single enchantment. refused to say anything to us. when it was obvious that the tank didn't know where to go, how to handle trash or ever bosses. after we wiped on the first boss in ZG we tried asking if the tank knew how to do the fight. cause dude stood right on the green shit and died almost instantly. no response at all. so we figured he didn't have a clue as to what was going on. from that point on we all went into what i can only describe as raid mode. we start paying more attention to shit. doing every little extra thing we can to make sure that we win. basically just being on top of our game. the tank was able to make it through trash pulls alive, BARELY, but never made it through a boss encounter. our healer was able to keep the tank up, unless he stood in something that would one shot him, for almost half of the fight before it would just be too much and he would end up going down. so then the rest of us ended up bouncing the bosses between all of the dps in the group. oh yeah. throughout this entire dungeon, he never used a single cool down. i don't even want to talk about how bad the last boss was... we had the ret pally taunt the boss out of the green bubble... AND had him pulling the berserker which i would MD to the tank... it was a hot mess... so yeah, a good group can carry a fail ass tank through a dungeon. LOL!

[announced]

not much bad stuff to stand in ZA/zg ( ok in ZA its the minor quake dot from troll juggernaughts and obvious boss abilities (Janalai' inferno) / DND or consecration from Hex lord Malacrass or Dragonfire from Daakara . and of course the obvious from ZG.

Ive played a holy priest/ disc priest/ shaman/ druid/ and a pally healer so i do know the basics as to what works for healing and what doesnt. some healers are just dreadful or have no idea how a tank is geard and use very expensive heals at the cost of going oom every pull ( perhaps this works cause the tank has bad gear)

(or they feel a tank is too well gear'd and dont use good heals at all ( had some pally healer use holy light exclusively , no holy shock or anything else).

all in all. id hate to be reliant on a tank. but knowing my class very well i often get people thanking me for not being one of those stam stacking idiots that dies in 2-3 hits. ( had a dk tank die on jan'alai adds the other day im still laughing about , he claimed the dragonhawk adds hit him for 18k each)

[Mystile]

Since when do tanks carry the group? Last I knew we just pull stuff and tried to keep aggro over frost dks and fury warriors. If anyone "carries" a group, it's the healer. Without them, you're bound to fail, obviously.

[Myrrar]

Not surprising this thread turned into a troll/flame war with the OP.

I understand shit is frustrating in this game, but less rant and more discussion next time please.