Article: DREAM Paragon 10-Man Ragnaros Kill, Cenarion Hatchling Pet, Blue Posts, Artworks

[KCee]

Downing a boss the first time takes by far the longest. After that things just seem to get way easier. Doenst matter if you wiped 10 times, 100 times, or even 500 times, before the first kill. Once its down the first time, repeating it is not nearly as difficult.

And of course there's a difference in difficulty when you are taking a group to a raid and gearing up normally/exclusively on 10, vs bringing your best geared people from 25, who are half/nearfull 391 to a 10man raid. Its the difference between 2-3 pieces of 391 gear per person, vs 5-full 391.

Oh look. 4pc on every one of those toons.

Until they have a 10man that gear exclusively from the 10man, Nothing they 'SAY' now means anything, simply because they cant compare them equally.

Either way, short of the comment about 10s, it doesnt take away the feat. Congrats to Paragon for completing it on both raid sizes.

[Vook]

Problem, 10-man raiding guilds?

But yeah, wonderful, this will shut up all the whiners QQing that 10man is harder than 25man. I mean, I don't read about this stuff and I know from another guild on my server that Baelroc 10H is a joke. They apparently wiped for 2 hours on it before downing it.

[Desdonde]

Well a paragon raider in the other thread said this:

Which felt more challenging? 25-man by about a mile and then some. Really, the 10-man heroic bosses just rolled over and gave loot. Ragnaros was a tiny bit challenging, but that was because we tried approaching it in an overly complicated manner (ie., tried to carry over our 25-man tactics).

There's really no argument even to be made that 10's are at all harder or "overtuned." They're easier for a multitude of reasons. And that's not a bad thing, considering some of the limitations

Take from that what you will I suppose ....

[Finear]

grats Paragon

and
please gief more artworks from burning crusade intro !

[SpartaKick]

This doesn't really prove or disprove anything concerning the difficulty of 10 man compared to 25 man raids. Either raid size will have its advantages and disadvantages. For example, Ragnaros may be easier in 10 man because there is less chaos in p3 due to the smaller amount of meteors (assuming your DPS is pulling appropriate numbers), and more difficult in 25 man because of the added chaos. On the other hand, Majordomo Staghelm may be more difficult on 10 man because of the high raid damage output, whereas 25 mans may have a slight advantage due to being able to utilize many raid-wide damage reduction cooldowns. Each has their own benefits, each has their own downfall.

[Iceleet]

Right, and they didn't know the fight after 32 wipes on 25 man? Surely they knew it after 100, 200, 300, 400, 500...

There are more variables in 25 man, and thus more things can go wrong.

.... You totally missed my point.
To clarify what my point is, it's how they already know what to do from those 25 wipes that made the fight far easier for them in 10 man, since they obviously know what to do. The fight is still hard thus the wipes. Tactics make every fight easier.

[Jurwi]

With three Brez, three ankhs and alot of lawlz. I still say they're about the same I suppose, but who am I to argue I've done both.

You've cleared both 10 and 25man hc raggy? Uh... no you're not.

[Deleted]

bullshit they killed him on 25 they know how to do it... killing it on 10man now with only 32 wipes means nothing.

[matters]

Congratulations to Paragon for downing Rag on both difficulties!

[Forgottenone]

I am happy for Paragon but I was hoping that another guild got world 2nd for killing Rag. That way Paragon would release their video >.< I enjoy watching their vids (favourite was heroic LK).

[Deleted]

seriously... if paragon wanna prove anything they should create new Chars and play ONLY 10man with it. Yes it makes a huge difference if you get 2 or 5 Items

[kynd]

I think I'll take the word of the best guild in the world over anyone else when it comes to difficulty.

[Zka]

Fuck this 10 vs 25 debate already. 25m raiders going back to 10m after they have it on farm and post "loool 10m is soo easy". Fuck you, really.

[traen]

.... You totally missed my point.
To clarify what my point is, it's how they already know what to do from those 25 wipes that made the fight far easier for them in 10 man, since they obviously know what to do. The fight is still hard thus the wipes. Tactics make every fight easier.

Read this.

We begun importing our 25-man tactics and had multiple very silly wipes. Once we realized we could just ditch the overly complicated tactics, we made several P4 wipes.

It clearly says that they used much more complicated tactics in 25man.

I dont know how stupid people should be to still insist that 10man is in any way harder.

All players who play in 25man and then actually kill 10man bosses say that 10man is easier.
Players who say that 10man is harder raid in 10man and never killed anything harder than Shennox 25man heroic.

Just stop whining and listen to people who experienced BOTH heroic difficulties. At least the ONLY guild in the world that managed to clear all the bosses in all difficulties.

[Deleted]

This does not prove or disprove anything about 10 man being harder or not harder than 25 man.
Consider the gear they started the 10 man with, consider the fact they already killed stuff on 25 man.
Killing something once, can be difficult, but killing somthing twice, is considered easy.

Im actually sad Paragon tries to use themselves as the benchmark for whats hard or not in the 10vs25 man battle.
Atleast this time checking rankings, it seems that 10 man and 25 man are closer together, but well.

[kynd]

This does not prove or disprove anything about 10 man being harder or not harder than 25 man.
Consider the gear they started the 10 man with, consider the fact they already killed stuff on 25 man.
Killing something once, can be difficult, but killing somthing twice, is considered easy.

Im actually sad Paragon tries to use themselves as the benchmark for whats hard or not in the 10vs25 man battle.
Atleast this time checking rankings, it seems that 10 man and 25 man are closer together, but well.

Seriously, what does the best guild in the world know about measuring difficulty?!

[Deleted]

They said that 25kill was a "luck kill" everything was perfect. Now they say that was realy easy after few changes that were need on 25m but only complicate the fight on 10m point.Even if they start the race doing only 10m lets face it they did not need 500wipes. Because 10 ppl do less mistakes and is also easier to see who or what fail.

[KCee]

Players who say that 10man is harder raid in 10man and never killed anything harder than Shennox 25man heroic.

Just stop whining and listen to people who experienced BOTH heroic difficulties. At least the ONLY guild in the world that managed to clear all the bosses in all difficulties.

They simply cannot compare the two sized raids equally simply because 1) They already have experience killing Rag. and 2) The gear difference.

In a 10man raid, the players wouldnt have nearly the amount of gear that those 10 do.
And anyone can tell you, once you down a boss the first time, repeating it again is much much easier.

In T11 is was _proven_ that many of the 10 encounters were tuned to high initially for 10mans because they used 25man-sized damage/healthpools/mechanics/etc.

I'm not saying in T12 that 25mans may or maynot be harder. I'm just saying, in the end, unless everything is equal, you should consider comments like that, to be some what biased. And the comments by DREAM Paragon are biased (refer to my very first sentence).

[Iceleet]

Read this.



It clearly says that they used much more complicated tactics in 25man.

I dont know how stupid people should be to still insist that 10man is in any way harder.

All players who play in 25man and than actually kill 10man bosses say that 10man is easier.
Players who say that 10man is harder raid in 10man and never killed anything harder than Shennox 25man heroic.

Just stop whining and listen to people who experienced BOTH heroic difficulties. At least the ONLY guild in the world that managed to clear all the bosses in all difficulties.

Harder to manage =/= Harder tactic.
The only reason people say 10 man is easier is due to management being far more simple.

25 man means you need good players to do any progress and you most likely carry a lot of bad players, but in 10 man, it's easier to find 10 people that actually have brains and know what to do, now the tactics are more simple since you don't need to assign many different groups to different things.

[Deleted]

Soo much QQ about ferals. Even my restodruid is enjoying the tears