World 2nd (1st) 10man Ragnaros HC

[Hermanni]

Fact: Ragnaros fell on 25 hc before 10hc(as opposed to Al'Akir which had the opposite)
Fact: Only kills on 10man were from 25 man guilds.

By their own admission paragon claimed that 10-man raid composition has to be done right(very strict). Maybe, just maybe 10 man is harder for a 10 man guild to pull of than 25man is for a 25man guild? There are 6 or 7 25 kills vs 2 on 10 man, I think Ragnaros on 10 hc is far from a cakewalk especially if you consider that dreadflames work the same way but you have far fewer people available to "stamp them out" (you can't tell 3 of your dps on 10 man go do "footman" work while you can on 25 man.

I think if you are stricly a 10 man guild you would find heroic ragnaros much harder than if you were a 25man guild even while taking into account that the very best guilds have been historically 25 mans (I am not talking about 40 man classic raids of course)

Only one player can get Deluge in 10-man, and only two Dreadflames spawn at once (3 Deluge for 6 Dreadflames in 25) so the task is pretty much the same although the lone fireman hardly has to communicate. We never claimed 10M composition would have to be extremely strict for Ragnaros, and I'm rather certain that it doesn't. We just rather lazily used the best comp we could get with the players we had available on a friday evening for a non-dkp raid, but it never felt like it would have been impossible with anything else.

I do find this thread rather odd. Anyone could spot the advantages a 25-man guild has in raiding 10-man, but is there a difference if they haven't killed stuff in 25 first?

[Jellyphant]

Doesn't really count as a 10man kill until a 10man only guild kills it in my opinion. I'm fine with 10man guilds and I'm fine with 25man guilds, I'm not so ok with ones which flip between the two considering how difficult an encounter is. Seems like a dick move by the larger guilds.

I think the real defining factor in a 10 man kill is having 10 people. The size of the guild has nothing to do with the kill, there are no set standards. Paragon was the world first 10 man rag kill. Period. Doesn't matter if they're a 25 man guild.

Nothing is stopping 10 man guilds from having more than 10 people, just as nothing stop 25 man guilds from having more than 25 people. 10 man guilds are just as capable of stacking their raid comps too.

And why on earth is it a dick move, they're free to kill a boss in whatever difficulty they want to. There's absolutely no basis for calling it a dick move.

Fact: Ragnaros fell on 25 hc before 10hc(as opposed to Al'Akir which had the opposite)
Fact: Only kills on 10man were from 25 man guilds.

By their own admission paragon claimed that 10-man raid composition has to be done right(very strict). Maybe, just maybe 10 man is harder for a 10 man guild to pull of than 25man is for a 25man guild? There are 6 or 7 25 kills vs 2 on 10 man, I think Ragnaros on 10 hc is far from a cakewalk especially if you consider that dreadflames work the same way but you have far fewer people available to "stamp them out" (you can't tell 3 of your dps on 10 man go do "footman" work while you can on 25 man.

I think if you are stricly a 10 man guild you would find heroic ragnaros much harder than if you were a 25man guild even while taking into account that the very best guilds have been historically 25 mans (I am not talking about 40 man classic raids of course)

Really the reason so much of the first kills are 25 man kills is and always will be that more top end guilds do 25 man raiding, because it was the norm in WotLK, where it was common knowledge that 25's were half a tier harder. There are way less serious 10 man guilds than 25, thats why 7/9 kills have been in 25.

Also this strictly 10 man guild stuff is bs. Again, nothing is stopping 10 man guilds from having a big roster and running multiple raids to gear people up. Everyone acts as if 10 man guilds are limited to having 10 people.

[Inacup]

There is a difference between what your saying and what he is saying. If you had said it should be ignored purely because its a 10man kill, then it would be similar.

I don't like this! You're both being serious and making sense. What happened to you?

[Deleted]

Who cares? The Boss is dead

	H: Ragnaros	Jul 19, 2011 20:50	1	1	1	30000.00 / 30000.00

by Paragon, it doesnt matter which size and noone really care who got spot 7 in Ranking

[Deleted]

Which further shows that you are not a hardcore guild. If guilds like 25 mans manages to stack 3-4 of one healing class on one boss, any 10 man guild should easily be able to stack 1-2 healers of any class they want.

There might be a difference for your "hardcore" definition and mine. We raid a lot and as efficient as the conditions allow it. It's not about having several (geared) alts (and know 110% how to play them) and bring the fotm-class to win the game but playing dedicated and think outside of the box for our roster in particular. Paragon on the other hand brought FOUR druids for the kill while we actually raid with ZERO and sitting at 6/7 heroic like the rest of the world. *hint* Not only healers are capable of healing with Tranq and if used right you can pull off
Healer 1 Tranq
Healer 2 Tranq
Owl 1 Tranq
Feral 1 Tranq
Healer 1 Tranq
Healer 2 Tranq
for all the seed phases is a huge plus on top of intelligent raidcooldown-usage and other items (hello Tol Barad trinket). Additional healing from other sources besides the actual healers (either burst from tranq/hymns or the steady 2k hps flow from a shadow/enhancer) aren't that easy to balance compared to nonhealing dps, this has been the bane of t11 heroic 10m raiding and we might see a revival for Ragnaros?!

and the enrage timer seems to be a joke in comparison to 25 man.

On 25m you can actually prolong far beyond the enrage timer with lots of deterrence, evasion, dispersion, bubble-taunt and so on while on 10m your resources are rather limited. Granted both Staghelm and Baleroc had to much hitpoints, this has been addressed.

On the gear debate: i honestly can't see how another 5 itemlevel should help us on any kill, it's all about a) a clever strategy b) proper execution c) using the class mechanics to it's maximum benefits - well unless there's an insane dps trinket around like Deathbringer's Will back in ICC boosting your dps by 10% on it's own... and i haven't heard of such an item just yet

[Rioo]

25-man guilds killing 10-man bosses. Didn't care when Dream did it on Al'akir, didn't care when Paragon did it, not caring about this one. Getting people from 3 guilds, where at least one is 25-man. Lol.

inb4 why you post then?? Well the title didn't say anything about them being 25-man.

[Zoomkin]

I don't like this! You're both being serious and making sense. What happened to you?

I don't know, i think im loosing my troll

[Diivil]

There might be a difference for your "hardcore" definition and mine. We raid a lot and as efficient as the conditions allow it. It's not about having several (geared) alts (and know 110% how to play them) and bring the fotm-class to win the game but playing dedicated and think outside of the box for our roster in particular. Paragon on the other hand brought FOUR druids for the kill while we actually raid with ZERO and sitting at 6/7 heroic like the rest of the world. *hint* Not only healers are capable of healing with Tranq and if used right you can pull off Healer 1 Tranq Healer 2 Tranq Owl 1 Tranq Feral 1 Tranq Healer 1 Tranq Healer 2 Tranq for all the seed phases is a huge plus on top of intelligent raidcooldown-usage and other items (hello Tol Barad trinket). Additional healing from other sources besides the actual healers (either burst from tranq/hymns or the steady 2k hps flow from a shadow/enhancer) aren't that easy to balance compared to nonhealing dps, this has been the bane of t11 heroic 10m raiding and we might see a revival for Ragnaros?!

You don't need tranquilities in 10 man Ragna close as much as you need them in 25 man. We used boomkin tranqs after taking traps in P2 on 25 man but didn't even bother to do that in 10 man since they weren't needed. Healing overall is a joke in 10 man compared to the 25 man but that could be because we used 2 healers on 10 and 3 healers on 25 We brought the best raid comp for our tactic because we could. That's what we do in 25 man raids as well.

[Deleted]

On 25m you can actually prolong far beyond the enrage timer with lots of deterrence, evasion, dispersion, bubble-taunt and so on while on 10m your resources are rather limited. Granted both Staghelm and Baleroc had to much hitpoints, this has been addressed.

Which is really the most stupid argument ever. What does it matter if 25 mans can prolong the enrage of bosses like Baleroc with 50 seconds for the world first kills with extreme execution. 10 mans killed the boss 1 minute before the enrage easy. The enrage is just a non issue in 10 man because the dps requirements are so low. If you hit the enrages in 10 man, your doing it wrong, or just using a 5 tank 5 healer strategy.

[Deleted]

Healing overall is a joke in 10 man compared to the 25 man but that could be because we used 2 healers on 10 and 3 healers on 25

We're sitting at about 35k rdps taken until the seed phases and that's with Tol Barad trinkets for every trap + raidcooldowns when we detonating multiple ones. I don't know if he's hitting significantly harder on 25m or burning wound ticks for way more but according to the dungeon journal at least his other abilities deal similar damage (wrath hitting three targets instead of one). If i'd add another 15 players with 2000 dps taken on average that's another 30k hps required. I honestly have no clue how we should heal this with only three people Maybe that's the problem of us 10m players, it's hard to imagine (or remember back) to the 25 days and draw comparisons. Just looking at a healing meter alone probably won't solve that.

Regarding raidcomp: There's alway a debate about the roster like if we have 14 players that's like 35 people for you but almost everyone (doesn't matter if 10's or 25's) has a tight tank/healer setup with maybe one-two backups each and only has real leeway to swap around your dps. While for 25m you regulary have one-three of every class/specc you can run 10m groups without any leather or mail wearing player totally fine (except for loot distribution but i don't want to rant about that, it's a boring topic whatsoever). But what you're going to do if class x turns out to be "required" or at least make things considerable easier? Recruiting? Twinking?

Which is really the most stupid argument ever. What does it matter if 25 mans can prolong the enrage of bosses like Baleroc with 50 seconds for the world first kills with extreme execution. 10 mans killed the boss 1 minute before the enrage easy. The enrage is just a non issue in 10 man because the dps requirements are so low. If you hit the enrages in 10 man, your doing it wrong, or just using a 5 tank 5 healer strategy.

I haven't seen any 10 man group killing him in the first week with less then 30 seconds to spare (outside of those killing him before his 10% hitpoints buff). Even today there's only one guild in the whole world (at least of those whose publish their logs) with slightly more then a half minute leeway. You shouldn't underestimate the disadvantages of de-/buff coverage in 10m, lots of us have to deal with missing 4% physical damage/bleeddamage, 4% spelldamage/5% spellcrit. They are only minor in the big picture but you'll almost always see slightly higher numbers on 25m.
Regarding Staghelm heroic: there's a rising strategy with him not staying in scorpid form for even one slash (thus allowing killing him in about 8 instead of 10 minutes), i highly hope Blizzard will do something to fix that. If you play him "the right way" it's actually pretty tight tuned for 1 tank/3 healer and we barely manage to down him at/before enrage every time.

[LordBalkoth]

Only one player can get Deluge in 10-man, and only two Dreadflames spawn at once (3 Deluge for 6 Dreadflames in 25) so the task is pretty much the same although the lone fireman hardly has to communicate. We never claimed 10M composition would have to be extremely strict for Ragnaros, and I'm rather certain that it doesn't. We just rather lazily used the best comp we could get with the players we had available on a friday evening for a non-dkp raid, but it never felt like it would have been impossible with anything else.

I do find this thread rather odd. Anyone could spot the advantages a 25-man guild has in raiding 10-man, but is there a difference if they haven't killed stuff in 25 first?

"This leads us to the fact that the gap between an optimal setup and the wrong setup seems to be quite a bit larger in 10-man than in 25s. If the encounters are really hard, you'll need a proper setup. Guilds shooting for a world first should always be expected to come up with one, but those below, the ones without alt raids, will be left hanging. If the encounters are tuned for the 'average' setup, guilds who can afford the optimal one will steamroll through them...."
That is related to how composition is important for 10 mans. Lifted straight form your site. On deluge I was a bit off but what if that lone "fireman" person is chased by a living meteor? 2 meteors chasing 2 players out of 25 is one thing 2 meteors chasing 2 players out of 10 is not good.


If a 25 man guild did not do the 25 man version but did the 10 man version it may mean it does not have what it takes for the 25 man version. That does not automatically mean that the 10 man version is easier. A guild can have 10 exceptional players and the other 15 good but not great and if it takes those 10 exceptional ones into the 10 man version it would seem easier if only by illusion. 10 man guilds even those shooting for 7/7 heroic may not have 4-5 world class druids or any other class if they have 2 it is nice.

The strongest argument against 10 man being a joke is the fact that there are not dozens or hundreds of those kills by 10 man guilds but only 2 kills by 25 man guilds.

"We just rather lazily used the best comp we could get with the players we had available on a friday evening for a non-dkp raid, but it never felt like it would have been impossible with anything else." Does "lazily" assembling mean taking your 2 raid leaders(including your guildmaster), 2 of your primary tanks your "demonology" specialist, etc. To me it was a serious undertaking. And why has not paragon released its 10 man video yet?

[Deleted]

you don't have to raid firelands heroic to see that 10 man is obviously easier than 25 man.

As a matter of fact, you do have to.
But how can we ever know for sure? How many guilds do both 10 and 25? and how can you say you can do both with the same starting knowledge?
If you downed a boss on 25 and then go for 10, it sure will be easier because you carry the knowledge and experience of the 25-er kill with you, which makes the encounter look easier.
The only thing we can say is that a lot of guilds "experienced" the 10 man content being harder in T11 and somewhat easier in T12.
(and this doesn't count yet for T12 hc, because there are just not enough guild to make a statement about that)

So your statement is not quite correct.

on topic: does it matter that much if they are a 25-er guild or a 10-only? Fact is they downed him and congratz to them for it.

---------- Post added 2011-08-03 at 05:31 PM ----------

Also @ all people saying 25 got more gear

If you would even bother to look through the rosters of 10 vs 25 guilds with equal progress, you will notice that in 90% of the cases, the 10 mans got either more or equal gear, this is due to 25 mans using alot more players / gear piece that drops. So just please, stop that bullshit. If anything 10's got more gear ( Although its pretty much equal.

I don’t think this is true. If 3 pieces drop for a 25 man with 5 mages, then every piece will find an owner. If the same 3 pieces drop for a 10 man group with 2 mages (to keep the 1/5 ratio) then 1 piece goes to waste.
Now it will even outa bit, because the chance of it dropping on 10 man is of course smaller (since less pieces drop per time) but still.

We had this thing when the same tier item dropped over and over again, going to waste while others didn’t have a 4^th piece yet. I think the chance for that to happen in 25 man is smaller.

[Deleted]

Nothing is stopping 10 man guilds from having more than 10 people, just as nothing stop 25 man guilds from having more than 25 people. 10 man guilds are just as capable of stacking their raid comps too.

i like how many people forget this and assume a 25 trying it in 10 man will be beter at 10 man then a normaly 10 man guild

[Deleted]

I don’t think this is true. If 3 pieces drop for a 25 man with 5 mages, then every piece will find an owner. If the same 3 pieces drop for a 10 man group with 2 mages (to keep the 1/5 ratio) then 1 piece goes to waste.
Now it will even outa bit, because the chance of it dropping on 10 man is of course smaller (since less pieces drop per time) but still.

We had this thing when the same tier item dropped over and over again, going to waste while others didn’t have a 4^th piece yet. I think the chance for that to happen in 25 man is smaller.

In your scenario, 100% of the mages in the 10 man got the gear and only 60% of the 25 man mages. Lets take another example.


If 1 piece drops for 5 mages in 25 man, 20% of the mages got it. If 1 piece drop for 2 mages in 10 man, 50% got it. See, you can twist numbers however you want. You have RNG in both 10 man and 25 man. Drops will get disenchanted. If I got a penny for every time we disenchanted akirus the wyrmbreaker while my bloody tank boots never dropped, I would have several pennies

Same goes for halfus chest. Every single Warlock Paladin Priest had that chest for both main spec and off spec, we probably vendored a good 10 conqueror chests, while not even 50% of the protecters had theirs even for main spec. The gloves where the straight opposite, vendoring protectors and conquerors starved.

RNG is RNG...

However, what we are doing now is just pulling up random numbers, random case scenarios, what if this happens bla bla bla.

FACT is, if you compare 10 vs 25 man guilds with the same progress, 10's got more gear. FACTS. Yes, FACTS. I think I wrote FACTS in caps enough times now. hmm.... nah once more FACTS. You can check it out if you want.

---------- Post added 2011-08-03 at 06:08 PM ----------

As a matter of fact, you do have to.
But how can we ever know for sure? How many guilds do both 10 and 25? and how can you say you can do both with the same starting knowledge?
If you downed a boss on 25 and then go for 10, it sure will be easier because you carry the knowledge and experience of the 25-er kill with you, which makes the encounter look easier.
The only thing we can say is that a lot of guilds "experienced" the 10 man content being harder in T11 and somewhat easier in T12.
(and this doesn't count yet for T12 hc, because there are just not enough guild to make a statement about that)

My guild experienced the 10 man content to be overall easier in t11, and in t12 the difference is just mindboggling. Switching from 10 to 25 in T12 is like switching from normal mode to heroic mode. And yes, I have 6/7 in both modes with tries on ragnaros.

Raiding 25 man on my main and 10 man on my alt.

Now you will probably go "omg you get experience on your main so ofc alt kills easier".

Actually, we killed 6/7 in 25 man on wednesday release day, then we killed 7/7 with alts in 1 raid before killing ragnaros on our second 25 man raid.
After that our alt run killed 6/7 heroic faster then our 25 man core group, with less attempts spent on each boss. Add this up with as we said, we had no experience in 10 man, in 25 man atleast 10/25 had done the fight before and people suck at playing their alts. And no, our alt run does not consist of our 10 best players from 25 man, and no we do not carry deadweight. The alt run is just a random group without and consideration of setup or whatever, just whoever wants to join gets to join.

[Hermanni]

"This leads us to the fact that the gap between an optimal setup and the wrong setup seems to be quite a bit larger in 10-man than in 25s. If the encounters are really hard, you'll need a proper setup. Guilds shooting for a world first should always be expected to come up with one, but those below, the ones without alt raids, will be left hanging. If the encounters are tuned for the 'average' setup, guilds who can afford the optimal one will steamroll through them...."
That is related to how composition is important for 10 mans. Lifted straight form your site. On deluge I was a bit off but what if that lone "fireman" person is chased by a living meteor? 2 meteors chasing 2 players out of 25 is one thing 2 meteors chasing 2 players out of 10 is not good.

I know what is being said on our site. Of course setup dependence is more pronounced in 10M, but if you read carefully what I said was that that dependence isn't unusually high on Ragnaros. People will kill Ragnaros 10M with different setups just like people will kill Ragnaros with Shamans in the raid. And if the Deluge player gets fixate, he gets the meteor knocked off him in 5 seconds by another player while he minds his own business, just like how it should be done in 25M. In 25M the risk of a Deluge player dying to a bad meteor knock is much higher as it's hard for other players to keep track of all of them, and one dying at wrong time without Soulstone or extemely fast cres usually results in a wipe as the Dreadflames get out of control fast in such situations. 2 Meteors didn't really feel any more difficult in 10M as the boss seemed to die much faster anyway and healing wasn't much of an issue.

If a 25 man guild did not do the 25 man version but did the 10 man version it may mean it does not have what it takes for the 25 man version. That does not automatically mean that the 10 man version is easier. A guild can have 10 exceptional players and the other 15 good but not great and if it takes those 10 exceptional ones into the 10 man version it would seem easier if only by illusion. 10 man guilds even those shooting for 7/7 heroic may not have 4-5 world class druids or any other class if they have 2 it is nice.

The strongest argument against 10 man being a joke is the fact that there are not dozens or hundreds of those kills by 10 man guilds but only 2 kills by 25 man guilds.

We never said 10M is a joke because that's just not true, part from certain aspects of certain bosses (and that works both ways.)

"We just rather lazily used the best comp we could get with the players we had available on a friday evening for a non-dkp raid, but it never felt like it would have been impossible with anything else." Does "lazily" assembling mean taking your 2 raid leaders(including your guildmaster), 2 of your primary tanks your "demonology" specialist, etc. To me it was a serious undertaking. And why has not paragon released its 10 man video yet?

Like I said we raided it with a "non-mandatory" -raid and probably would have fixed another date if we couldn't have had both our tanks for it. Maybe my choice of words was poor, as we shamelessly always take whatever advantage we think we can legitimately get, which probably is true for 100% of guilds anyway.

[The Darkitecht]

My opinion on the debate that 25's gear slower then 10 mans. Sorry for the long winded post, i didnt expect it to come out this long, lol.

FACT is, if you compare 10 vs 25 man guilds with the same progress, 10's got more gear. FACTS. Yes, FACTS. I think I wrote FACTS in caps enough times now. hmm.... nah once more FACTS. You can check it out if you want.

Your FACTS are nonsense, and you clearly have no experience raiding in a strict 10 man environment if you honestly think 10 man raids gear faster then 25 man raids, you look at one example, and then claim it as fact...which i found quite amusing.

I'm not gonna argue the difference between 10 and 25 in difficulty, topic is beaten to death. Let people play the game the way they want and don't belittle them for playing in the raid size of their choice, that is the bottom line and the most mature answer to that topic.

But for you to honestly believe that 25 man raids gear slower then 10 man raids is a true misunderstanding on your part and you need to think about ALL aspects of gearing, and in only extreme cases of well-balanced raids that have all four armor types that have gotten incredible luck / rng may that be the case, and only this early in the progression. Hordelinge may have gotten INCREDIBLY good loot for their boss kills, but you'll see that they will have to keep farming...and most importantly, with their same 10 geared players, for much longer then any 25 man guild in order to max them all out.

16 armor slots per toon - let's assume there's no bis crafted and or rep items, and no disenchants

10 players, or 160 armor pieces to obtain, at 19 loots per week. 8.43 weeks to fully gear a 10 man raid
25 players, or 400 armor pieces to obtain, at 50 loots per week. 8 weeks to fully gear a 25 man raid.

Obviously this is just basic math, but it takes half a week less to get 400 drops, versus 10 mans 160 drops. Not that significant, now factor in disenchants, wasted loots, and put it into a real time scenerio. I'll use my raid composition as an example.

Prot Paladin
Holy Paladin
Blood DK
Frost DK
Enhance Shaman
Hunter
Resto/Moonkin Druid
Arcane Mage
Lock
Holy/Disc Priest

1 leather caster, no agility leather users.
2 Mail agility users, no spirit mail users
1 Plate intellect user
1 Plate Strength user
2 Plate Tanks
3 Clothies, 1 Cloth spirit user.

25 man will have ALL bases covered, you will NOT disenchant anything your first time getting 391 loot unless the item sucks that horribly that noone would ever use it, and I can't think of any items that fill that role this tier, correct me if im wrong.

My 10 man who already recieves less loot per boss, will also start disenchanting items much faster as well. Right off the get go, we had to offspec/DE agility leather and spirit mail, which have absolutely no raid application, because those two classes never play feral and resto respectively. We also will be offspecing and d/eing intellect plate as soon as it drops once.

25 Mans will use every single item at least once, unless they get really bad RNG and have 3 of the same item drop on one of their first kills, it is almost a guarentee that the 25 man will DE less items during a gear-up stage then a 10 man guild. the fact that the same item can drop twice off one boss helps to even out the RNG between the two.

More quick math.

10 man kills Heroic Shannox, receives Conq legs, mail spirit boots, and Tank legs. This was the guilds first kill on shannox, and they've already disenchanted an item or offspec'd it, because they had no use for mail spirit. 33% of the loot off the boss was completely wasted, now they've gone from needing 160 items to 158.

25 man kills herioc shannox, receives conq legs x2, protector legs, 2x mail spirit boots, tank legs, spirit offhand, and dagger. Let's be generous and assume the guild has only one resto shaman, and no elemental shaman, since comp varies by guild, and for the sake of the arguement im gonna give the 25 man guild the benefit of the doubt and say they only have 1. So none of the loot was rot, except one mail spirit boots. 12.5% of the loot was wasted for the 25 man.

In this example where both guild only disenchanted one item, (This example can almost be looked at as FACT cwutididthar?lol), since in most progressing environments, 25 mans will rot far less frequently then 10 mans. This becomes more and more of a problem for 10 man guilds as they receive loot they only need one of (In my case, spirit cloth. or intellect plate, the rate of items disenchanted skyrockets, and you find yourself disenchanting 33% or 50% of the loot off every boss rather fast in 10 man, for the sake of this discussion, offspec is considered disenchanting) whereas 25 mans likely have multiple people lined up for every item in the instance. This skyrocket effect takes place several weeks into a 25 mans progression, while by the second, or third week, we're already disenchanting half of our 391s.

The counter argument in favor of 25 man here is that its much more difficult to have the SAME 25 players show up every single raid night, then it is for a 10 man raid. My 10 man raid has nearly 100% attendance, i suffer maybe once absence a month at random, sometimes none. While 25 man raids have to recruit upwards of 30-33 players so they have bench warmers just in case someone, or several people don't show up. So in reality 25 man guilds wind up gearing 30+ players, not 25. But I'd still be confident in believing that they can gear 30 players faster then a 10 man can fully equip 10. This is hard to really discuss because it changes on a case by case, some guilds will great attendance dont suffer this, but most of the normal, average guilds will..and those will find gearing take significantly longer because when a person doesnt show up to a raid and they have to gear someone new, or somebody quits the game and they have to replace them, unless they recruit someone of similar ilevel, then all of the loot they put on them is lost. 10 man strict raids are usually comprised of friends, and people that are close to one another..so absences and turnover are a lot less then they would be in a 25 man guild, or at least that is my experience.

Both raid sizes have +'s and -'s to ALL aspects of them, yes, the looting aspect too. But for equal environments, gearing 25 players is much faster then gearing 10.

Blizzard has designed the game around the fact that 25 mans WILL gear faster then 10s. They said it before cata released, and they've said it many times since then...its one of the perks for raiding a 25 roster instead of a 10 roster, and as a strict 10 man raider and GM myself, I'm really okay with that.

[Kapaya]

Sigh, are we gonna keep making a new thread every time someone downs Ragnaros heroic? No one gives a shit after top 3. Really, 10 or 25, not interesting since Paragon got both!

[Gunslinger]

....
Also @ all people saying 25 got more gear
....

Not sure if trolling or just ignorant. You can WoW-Heroes Guild check them and Paragon has HIGHER gear score on their characters compared to Hordlinge!

Not only that but it took them over 500 tries to get him on 25 where the got a good grip on tactics and then another 32(cause it's blasphemy to hit a digit wrong) for their 10s kill.

PARAGON (top 10 ranked)

1			Sejta		Feral		0	85		5253
2			Rakez		Combat		1	85		5251
3			Devai		Marksmanship		3	85		5232
4			Verdísha		Fury		3	85		5230
5			Nize		Frost		3	85		5182
6			Baltha		Arcane		1	85		5168
7			Krimsy		Marksmanship		8	85		5167
8			Ilonie		Holy		3	85		5162
9			Kruf		Marksmanship		3	85		5158
10			Lihas		Balance		3	85		5155

Compared to Hordlinge

1			Johnyy		Frost		2	85		5200
2			Lurielle		Survival		4	85		5162
3			Maniax		Shadow		4	85		5135
4			Nerloran		Destruction		4	85		5134
5			Fühler		Arcane		4	85		5121
6			Betänkung		Protection		4	85		5105
7			Rhass		Balance		5	85		5081
8			Alpharius		Shadow		0	85		5073
9			Alok		Enhancement		1	85		5067

Edit: Also note that in Paragon there are 29 players over 5070 (5117 being equal to ilvl 378 equipped in ALL gear slots) gear score compared to only 9 others in Hordlinge. Only 5 players from Hordlinge have equipped higher ilvl than 378 compared to 19 players from Paragon!

[Jellyphant]

Not sure if trolling or just ignorant. You can WoW-Heroes Guild check them and Paragon has HIGHER gear score on their characters compared to Hordlinge!

Not only that but it took them over 500 tries to get him on 25 where the got a good grip on tactics and then another 60ish for their 10s kill.




Edit: Also note that in Paragon there are 29 players over 5070 (5117 being equal to ilvl 378 equipped in ALL gear slots) gear score compared to only 9 others in Hordlinge. Only 5 players from Hordlinge have equipped higher ilvl than 378 compared to 19 players from Paragon!

What does this mean? That paragon puts more effort into it. They run two 25 mans ffs, of course they get more gear.
One guild works harder than another guild to beat them at something, then other guilds point at that and go "But look, the only reason they beat guild x to that was because they worked harder at it."


edit:
"Another 60ish"
Like how you casually just kinda doubled the number.

[Barth]

Edit: Also note that in Paragon there are 29 players over 5070 (5117 being equal to ilvl 378 equipped in ALL gear slots) gear score compared to only 9 others in Hordlinge. Only 5 players from Hordlinge have equipped higher ilvl than 378 compared to 19 players from Paragon!

Isn't that pretty much to be expected since Paragon raids in 25 mans and Hordlinge raids in 10 mans? I mean, of course Hordlinge isn't going to have 29 players over X gear level, they don't even have 29 players period.