[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[dennisdkramer]

In rift the middle of the trees. Where you spend most of your points is barren of anything worth whiled. Making 61 pointers king and leaving you 15 points to spend anywhere else but get jack in return. There are very few builds outside 61 point that are efficient enough to work. I still fucking cringe when I see cleric trees. Every single one of them is better off if you go full 61 point.

I havent played rift in a while, but when I did hybrid purifier/sentinel was probably the strongest overall healer build, hybrid dps builds were the best dps, and you COULD max out a tree but it pidgeon-holed you a bit and made you a little less versatile even if you did get an awesome ability out of it.

That said, even if 61 point builds were (randomly picking 3%) better, that's fine, still lets you play around and find your own niche. All they have to do is keep the balance within a couple percent and its good enough for 99% of players. Its when a build gets 5 or 10% better than other builds that theres a problem. I think that was part of the issue with GW2, not that there werent some fun builds, but others were FAR better. I played thief, for example, and there were only basically 2 or 3 viable build choices.. and if you commit to a build you have to go ALL the way for that build or you'd just be gimped. I know other classes had a *bit* more build versatility but I imagine most cases were similar. How often (in pvp) did you see a warrior NOT using thousand blades? (the answer is never)

[zito]

I havent played rift in a while, but when I did hybrid purifier/sentinel was probably the strongest overall healer build, hybrid dps builds were the best dps, and you COULD max out a tree but it pidgeon-holed you a bit and made you a little less versatile even if you did get an awesome ability out of it.

Good thing I was talking about back in in the day /rolls eyes.

My point is just because you see a lot of variety doesn't mean it always falls threw.

[Monarken]

I havent played rift in a while, but when I did hybrid purifier/sentinel was probably the strongest overall healer build, hybrid dps builds were the best dps, and you COULD max out a tree but it pidgeon-holed you a bit and made you a little less versatile even if you did get an awesome ability out of it.

AFAIK the puri/sent (32/33?) was the "best" 5man, perhaps 10man build.
Dont remember it being the bestest 20man. Or am i wrong?

IMO the more the merrier, i would love for them to launch with 8-9 classes

[Valeron]

My issue with Rift's skill trees was all of the filler stuff.

[Fencers]

But the customizeing in Rift and TSW are very limited via lack of synergy and talent placements. TSW skills lack synergy with each other. I'm not saying there isn't any but there is a lack off with all weapons.

In rift the middle of the trees. Where you spend most of your points is barren of anything worth whiled. Making 61 pointers king and leaving you 15 points to spend anywhere else but get jack in return. There are very few builds outside 61 point that are efficient enough to work. I still fucking cringe when I see cleric trees. Every single one of them is better off if you go full 61 point.

GW2 traits are pretty bad too and Anet even said it.

This a matter of perspective. Not all the skills, souls or talents in Rift or TSW are intended to work together. Some are just meant for a singular purpose, some are intended to be better than others at a specific task, some are filler, etc.

Being able to roll your own deck is the allure. That doesn't mean you are guaranteed to roll a "good" deck.

Can't design a game that way, frankly.

[zito]

My issue with Rift's skill trees was all of the filler stuff.

Which is all in the middle of the tree where you would spend most of your points if you were trying to make a hybrid. And since it's in the middle, which is deeper in the tree the filler stuff gets more specific like +x damage to fire damage not benefiting from your other soul if it has nothing to do with fire.

[dennisdkramer]

Good thing I was talking about back in in the day /rolls eyes.

My point is just because you see a lot of variety doesn't mean it always falls threw.

And my point was that theres nothing wrong with 61-point builds being good as long as you get something (versatility or survivability or movement etc) on the other side. There will always be a best build and if people choose to believe that they all need to use it because its 1% better, that's their loss.

edit: sorry kind of a tangent to what you were saying in retrospect

[Valeron]

Being able to roll your own deck is the allure. That doesn't mean you are guaranteed to roll a "good" deck.

Can't design a game that way, frankly.

that's actually one of my issues with GW2, the devs stated they didn't want anyone to have a bad build, I disagree with that. We should have the freedom to have a bad setup.

[zito]

This a matter of perspective. Not all the skills, souls or talents in Rift or TSW are intended to work together. Some are just meant for a singular purpose, some are intended to be better than others at a specific task, some are filler, etc.

Being able to roll your own deck is the allure. That doesn't mean you are guaranteed to roll a "good" deck.

Can't design a game that way, frankly.

No but you don't have to shove all the good stuff at the end of the tier and leave the middle with filler crap. It should be more worth it in some way.

---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 04:14 PM ----------

And my point was that theres nothing wrong with 61-point builds being good as long as you get something (versatility or survivability or movement etc) on the other side. There will always be a best build and if people choose to believe that they all need to use it because its 1% better, that's their loss.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with 61 points. I said there is a lack of variety even though you are presented with "variety". And I'm not talking about 1%. I really couldn't care about 1%. 20-30%? Now it gets kinda dumb.

[RoninaThorstone]

IMO the more the merrier, i would love for them to launch with 8-9 classes

Meh.

If they were 8-9 UNIQUE classes sure. But all too often, when an MMO makes a bunch of classes, we end up with a bunch of abilities that do the same things and classes ending up homogenized over time.

[athlonmax]

No but you don't have to shove all the good stuff at the end of the tier and leave the middle with filler crap. It should be more worth it in some way.

---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 04:14 PM ----------



I didn't say there was anything wrong with 61 points. I said there is a lack of variety even though you are presented with "variety". And I'm not talking about 1%. I really couldn't care about 1%. 20-30%? Now it gets kinda dumb.

Well Rift only have 4 classes to begin with, there bound to be some useless/filler skills in every each talent trees.

[RoninaThorstone]

Well Rift only have 4 classes to begin with, there bound to be some useless/filler skills in every each talent trees.

Depends on how you define filler. +dmg to X ability talents are filler to some people whereas extreme situational abilities are filler to others.

[zito]

Well Rift only have 4 classes to begin with, there bound to be some useless/filler skills in every each talent trees.

The classes are irrelevant, it just determines a playstyle. Your real class is the souls really. And filler talents are fine, but when you shove the juicy bits at the end of the tree and the middle of the tree is filled with specific filler stuff (such as +damage to a certain type of spell that is only covered in that soul) then it just becomes stupid.

[athlonmax]

Meh.

If they were 8-9 UNIQUE classes sure. But all too often, when an MMO makes a bunch of classes, we end up with a bunch of abilities that do the same things and classes ending up homogenized over time.

And they need to balance each classes too if they have 8-9 classes, which proof to be a headache in any MMOs out there.

I think 6 classes at launch should be a sweet spot.

[Valeron]

To me filler talents are things like +1% to fire damage

and then you have 3 tiers of that to +3%. SWTOR has the same crap in their talent trees as well

[Kelimbror]

To me filler talents are things like +1% to fire damage

and then you have 3 tiers of that to +3%. SWTOR has the same crap in their talent trees as well

But like HK pointed out, that is subjective. I don't mind having stat increases in a talent tree system because that's how RPGs work to me. You increase your stats when you level, why shouldn't you be able to increase your stats with certain abilities or affinities?

I think the problem is that people don't want cookie cutters, so these choices are actually mandatory selections in order to perform your role to the max capability. It doesn't actually matter that it has stat increases, it's that talents you 'must' take are problematic to most people.

Then if you hammer it out, what if talents had two similar abilities that mathematically parsed out to be balanced....the only way to do is to literally copy the abilities, but change the pretty pictures. Otherwise there will always be imbalance. I think that's the problem with developers and players in general is that nothing short of the best is acceptable to anyone. As boring as it sounds, the only real solutions are to allow a system where people are free to screw up or a system where everything is cosmetic, but we're all doing the same spells regardless of class.

System a is the best we can get at without being homogenized with huge downsides, system 2 is the most ideal in terms of balance but is incredibly boring. There's no right answer.

[RoninaThorstone]

And they need to balance each classes too if they have 8-9 classes, which proof to be a headache in any MMOs out there.

I think 6 classes at launch should be a sweet spot.

Balance is overrated.
In an RPG with levels, stats, abilities, and gear there will always been the ability to min max your character and one class will come out on top for certain things. There are just too many variables for a designer to have to deal with to stop it from happening.
It's really the players responsibility to find either the best class for what they want to do or find a niche that they can preform better than the top classes.
IE: in early to mid TBC, survival hunters dps was meh and no one wanted to play with it because it was viewed as an "lolmeleehuntard" spec. However, you could keep 3 targets ccd at all times (4 to start) with the blue dungeon set bonus and the right survival talents. In 5 man heroics, a well played SV hunter could make the instance pretty trivial, and for certain fights like morose, the SV hunter could handle most the CC in the fight allowing for the other players to focus on the boss more.
(That and it's sweet... SWEET debuff. +300 AP for the entire raid. (pets too))

[Deleted]

Balance is overrated.

stopped reading after that.

[Valeron]

I rather prefer it how the original Guild Wars did it. There wasn't any talent trees at all, instead you had a system of increasing varying attributes that would affect different types of skills.

[Deleted]

I rather prefer it how the original Guild Wars did it. There wasn't any talent trees at all, instead you had a system of increasing varying attributes that would affect different types of skills.

erm there isnt a talent tree in this.. you upgrade the stats you want which unlock, passives and abilites.. or thats what it used to be like.. wasnt it?

you then pick from the list of unlocked skills to make your build.