[Megathread] Wildstar - Now F2P

[Kelimbror]

And just like Age of Conan, for instance. Swinging at the air doesn't make a genre.

I'm sorry, but GW2 is not a genre. Combat styles are not a genre. So I don't know what you are talking about. It's an MMO.

And trinity based roles. So basically the core design elements that make the genre.

See above. If you're trying to be technical or semantic in nature, none of the games being referenced are Action Combat which is the only unique distinction within the genre.

Unsure of how anyone can say that a game with the tank/healer/DPS system and hit/avoidance stat based systems is anything like GW2 from a design standpoint at all. Again, it just feels like people see a "dodge" mechanic and think, "Yeah, that's GW2." (They said the same thing about Monk's "roll" in WoW when it was released, too)

Right, except the people mentioning this aren't saying 'omg they have dodge it's the same' What a simplistic dismissal. Additionally, there's a large difference between the actions that take place in combat and the overall design of that combat is integrated into the game in a PvE setting. This large difference, which you are trying to reduce to one concept, is right there.

I am talking about simply using abilities. When you are 1v1 against a mob in the world, the combat is immensely similar to GW2. Trinities, whatever else you want to try and throw in there..they simply don't matter. You can attack a mob without targeting it, most attacks are aoe by default of actually hitting everything in your animation range. That is the ONLY thing it needs to be GW2 combat in that 1v1 setting. And guess what, even GW2 has some directly targeted abilities like ranger attacks, mesmer attacks, etc.

To not be able to see the similarities is astonishing to me. It honestly sounds like people who have never played either game, even though I know the opposite is true.

It always seems like there's this irrational need for fans of a new game to distance themselves from that-other-game. Typically it just comes off as grasping at straws, as it does in this case.

Not sure how you think this is relevant, considering we've pointed out numerous times the similarities between WoW features just announced at Blizzcon, but have been specifically warned to not talk about WoW anymore. The combat is also not as similar, which is a good reason to not mention it.

[RoninaThorstone]

The different styles of MMOs tend to be referred to differently. Perhaps "genre" isn't the right word, but distinctions like "2nd gen/3rd gen" exist for a reason.

And Gen 2.5 was used to describe GW2 and W* because they have a mix of Gen 2 and Gen 3 aspects.

For example, this?

And just like Age of Conan, for instance. Swinging at the air doesn't make a genre.

You are talking an element of Gen 3 combat, of which there are many.

A large, defining feature of gen 2 is "tab target" and auto aimed abilities
IE: Tab a NPC, press "farie fire", NPC is hit iwth farie fire. I didn't have a cross hair or anything.
Gen 3 tends to have aiming for most abilities like in Tera, NWO, Vindictus, ect.

Another aspect of gen 2 is the way the mobs deal damage. Almost all of it is unavoidable "white" damage wheras in gen 3, most of it is dodgable.

In GW2, the combat divide of 2nd and 3rd gen falls along ranged and melee respectively. Almost all ranged attacks work of gen 2 tab targetting whereas melee works more off of gen 3.

In W*, the combat divide of 2nd and 3rd gen falls along the lines of npc and player repsectively. NPCs work like gen 2 NPCs with high, unavoidable white damage and very high movement whereas players must aim almost all their attacks.

[Kelimbror]

You're simply talking about "feel" here, which is neither here nor there. No different than saying that fighting solo as a Hunter in WoW "feels" like GW2 because I'm kiting and using Disengage as a dodge. [/FONT]

Nope. The actual gameplay is different.

Hunter: Must have a target selected to do any direct attacks and ONLY hit that target, regardless of pathing. Can only hit with direct attack on that target or aoe based on that target or via ground templates

Ranger: Can use abilities without a target. Attacks will hit anything in the path of the ranger and can pierce targets. Aoe is cast via templates and also directly without a target. You can effectively never target an enemy and still kill it.

These are mechanics.

Spellslinger: Can use abilities without a target, many attacks are aoe and will hit anything in the path in the range of the ability. Aoe is cast from the player. You can effectively never target an enemy and still kill it.

Now please.

[RoninaThorstone]

[/FONT]

You know this has never actually been true, right? Just about all ranged attacks in GW2 do in fact need a target or else their projectile just fires off into the ground. (Bardarian had the right of this in his post) Ground targeted abilities and the few cone-shaped abilities are the exceptions.

You can, technically, arc your shots but it's extremely difficult, even with CM1.1. Like, you have to angle the cross hair up about 30 to 80 degrees above your target depending on range.

(I've experimented with it a lot and wrote up a bit about why Wildstars equivalent of CM1.1 (WACC) is better early in the thread)

[Sy]

You're simply talking about "feel" here, which is neither here nor there. No different than saying that fighting solo as a Hunter in WoW "feels" like GW2 because I'm kiting and using Disengage as a dodge. [/FONT]

i disagree with that, because while it is obviously true that how something "feels" is way harder to define due to subjectivity, it's still an important point in comparison.

looking at the mechnical differences, the "hidden stuff" that's going on in the game engine, gw2's combat is actually very similar to that of wow (and many others). much more so than to something like tera. i'm talking about the actual combat system here, how targeting, movement, ability use etc are dealt with - not about somthing like the trinity that should for the most part fall under class design.
but through a few relatively minor differences and additions, gw2's combat still feels vastly different to that of wow, as those few changes have a huge effect on the focus of the system, and how players interact with and through it.

[Sy]

Yeah, but there's no reason to ever do it, not to mention that without an actual target ranged projectiles in GW2 act really, really weird and will often just collide with a nearby object - or the ground - rather than the player.

plus most projectiles will, even when homing in on a selected target, actually hit the first (hostile or neutral) entity in their path, regardless of whether it is the targeted one or not. one player being able to 'tank' a projectile simply by stepping in the way and effectively shielding an ally with their body (hitbox) can make for some pretty big gameplay differences.

[RoninaThorstone]

Honestly, WACC interacts far better with ranged abilities in W* than CM1.1 does with ranged abilities in GW2.

Because abilities are along a 2d plane (XY rather than XYZ) it is "easier" but more importantly the abilities are predicatable and smooth.

(I am a big fan of WACC + W*. Would have difficulty enjoying it without it)

[Sy]

Aye, body-blocking does occasionally come in handy in PvE. Harder to get it to matter in PvP because of the hitboxes and many (most?) ranged weapons having either a bounce or piercing effect, which ends up making the act of blocking more of a detriment than a help.

accurate movement with two or more (three in this case) entities that all move in different directions and all have a few ms of lag attached can get pretty awkward^^

I guess that's getting too much into the details of another game though, I should leave it alone before a mod gets us.

i think it's actually a good example for what i said above, about why the way W* combat feels in comparison to gw2 or wow is a pretty important distinction: because the body-blocking of projectiles could be done in wow as well. maybe not as reliably or accurate, as the engine was probably not designed with it in mind specifically, but it would still not be hard to make projectiles work like that. the difference is a design choice.

in 1v1 it doesn't even matter, but its still part of making the projectiles feel different. in wow, most projectiles themselves are pretty much just treated as graphical effect that is played in a short time frame between ability use and effect/damage impact. in gw2, and i would assume in w* too (i haven't played it myself yet) the projectile feels a lot more like a physical part of the worl, like an actual object with an actual path and velocity.

the same is true for melee. having melee abilities strike everything in a specific area in front of the character, instead of a specific target, would probably not be that hard to do in wow. in fact, druid swipes work like that, just without the restriction of frontal cones. but gw2 manages to make a big cleave with a 2-handed sword feel a lot more 'real', more physical, more part of the world that actually hits something, rather than a nice graphical effect that is put on top of an autotargeting ability.

- - - Updated - - -

Because abilities are along a 2d plane (XY rather than XYZ) it is "easier" but more importantly the abilities are predicatable and smooth.

that definitely sounds good, the way gw2's projectiles interacted (or rather 'conflicted') with the enviroment always bothered me.

[Kelimbror]

You know this has never actually been true, right? Just about all ranged attacks in GW2 do in fact need a target or else their projectile just fires off into the ground.

If I had video software I'd show you otherwise. Maybe it's unreliable, but I've never noticed. It fires into the distance and within range hits everything. Besides, it's largely irrelevant to how the actual mechanics function. Everything is aoe, you don't need targets. Use melee for all I care, the point is the same.

Basically the actual mechanics function like GW2 and the stats and math in the combat function closer to traditional hotkey. Stats are arbitrary though. They only included them and white damage tuned to force a trinity, which is good b/c I like the trinity.

[RoninaThorstone]

Basically the actual mechanics function like GW2 and the stats and math in the combat function closer to traditional hotkey. Stats are arbitrary though. They only included them and white damage tuned to force a trinity, which is good b/c I like the trinity.

And this is how this all started.

Some people like the player side combat (controls and movement, not stats) of GW2 but also like trinity. In order to meet this demographic they have added white damage whic is, arguably, the easiest way to do it.

This demographic exists and W* will be the only place to get that.

Niche demographic!

[RoninaThorstone]

Yah, if they're making "traditional PvE" but the PvP feels more like GW2...then yes, that would be pretty cool, I agree.

That's actually a great way to describe it.

Player characters behave like GW2 characters. NPCs behave like WoW mobs. PvP will be like GW2 and PvE will be like WoW.

This has been a good clarification session.

[Deleted]

Indeed! Cleared up some misconceptions for us unwashed non-beta playing types. =D[/FONT]

Indeed, thanks guys.

Given how much I enjoy, Gen3 combat engines from MMOs like Vindictus, NW and even Tera, I'm starting to realise just how far Wildstar will be from my expectations.

Now I am actively praying that EQN is released around the same time or earlier!

[Deleted]

Looking at the stream, seems like they didnt add impact sounds at all when you do damage. This is really big for me and is a hit or miss for good or bad combat. Its just a generic sound for that spell, its no different between hiting a target or not, or am i just seeing it wrong?

[RoninaThorstone]

That didn't even occur to me.

However, I am sure that it will be dealt with if it hasn't already. They said that the enemy swing / take damage animations weren't done so it makes sense that the sounds might not be done for them either.

[Deleted]

Yeah Gaffney said that not everything was finished yet in the sound area, and that sense of hiting was really important. He did also say that had some fixes and tweaks coming, so they should be in this beta. Its kinda hard to hear all of it since the music and their voices kinda overlap the ability sounds.

[Last Attempt]

I love the humor that the Wildstar team has lol.

[Valeron]

That's not how projectiles in GW2 do or have ever worked. If you don't have a target and just face at someone and shoot, your projectile just flops into the dirt about 3 feet in front of you. Anyway, GW2 stuff, meh in this thread.

actually depends on your camera angle. I can line up a shot on my ranger without targeting but it requires to lineup the camera in back of your character, so your character acts as the sight (like on a gun). Then you would hit your target. Why it hits the ground 3 feet in front of you most times is because you have the camera up higher like you normally do for a game.

[Petal]

Whenever I see Kelimbror's posts...

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7894022144/hC47E50AC/

[Kelimbror]

Whenever I see Kelimbror's posts...

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7894022144/hC47E50AC/

Hi Toothless. This is Kelimbror. I don't how to to answer your query, but I do like dragons. You'll just have to stay tuned to this thread for the final verdict!

[RoninaThorstone]

Whenever I see Kelimbror's posts...

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7894022144/hC47E50AC/

The word you are looking for is ambivalent.

We both are to some extent because wildstar has things we like and things that are... Well, terrible.
Luckily, some of the things I thought were terrible were pretty much agreed upon by the community and dev team and are being worked on for CBT4.

So, here's hoping.