Legendary Daggers talks here please...

[Deleted]

I also thinks they will still add stats to the daggers for two reasons:

1. It costs 10k gold. You'd expect to get something in return for that.
2. Why would you have epic quality daggers of ilvl 397 if they are worse than T12 normal (this is a guess, haven't simcrafted it) Why have something you can equip, but cannot really use?

and actually you can add a third consideration:

3. Why would there be no stats on this, but the caster legendary has?

[Deleted]

I also thinks they will still add stats to the daggers for two reasons:

1. It costs 10k gold. You'd expect to get something in return for that.
2. Why would you have epic quality daggers of ilvl 397 if they are worse than T12 normal (this is a guess, haven't simcrafted it) Why have something you can equip, but cannot really use?

and actually you can add a third consideration:

3. Why would there be no stats on this, but the caster legendary has?

1. Yes it costs 10k gold, you get a legendary in the end, if ur not happy with that, go somewhere else.
2. They're refered to "as an empty shell" by the black dragon prince dude, so why can't they be just that? an empty shell.
3. That's not a valid argument, then you might aswell ask this instead: Why would this legendary be limited to only one class, but the caster legendary isn't? (point being; you shouldn't expect a legendary to be a certain way because the last one was)

I really don't understand why it'd be so hard for people to accept the first stage of the daggers to be what they are currently if that's intended (not saying it is intended to be statless daggers, but IF it was supposed to be that way, why would it be so hard to accept for some people... Huge mystery...)

[akteliae]

1. Yes it costs 10k gold, you get a legendary in the end, if ur not happy with that, go somewhere else.
2. They're refered to "as an empty shell" by the black dragon prince dude, so why can't they be just that? an empty shell.
3. That's not a valid argument, then you might aswell ask this instead: Why would this legendary be limited to only one class, but the caster legendary isn't? (point being; you shouldn't expect a legendary to be a certain way because the last one was)

I really don't understand why it'd be so hard for people to accept the first stage of the daggers to be what they are currently if that's intended (not saying it is intended to be statless daggers, but IF it was supposed to be that way, why would it be so hard to accept for some people... Huge mystery...)

You may want to try rereading my post explaining what item level on *equippable* items means. The 'empty' quote, I will reiterate, is unlikely to refer to stats because quest-text very rarely breaks the fourth wall. If the NPC is talking about the item as that, an item in a video game, then it is breaking the fourth wall. That's highly unlikely given legendary questlines are always given high amounts of RP. They're 'empty' because they're only a fraction of what they will one-day become, not because they lack stats (because outside of game mechanics, stats don't exist on items. A handgun doesn't have a big "+5 ranged attack power" in real life, does it?)

Yes, the fact that the legendary daggers are going to one class only breaks precedent, but that doesn't mean you automatically throw *all* precedent out. Occam's Razor. Assuming they are simply incomplete, as its the PTR, makes far fewer new assumptions than assuming that they would create an equippable, usable, gemmable item with no stats thats item level is completely incorrect for the amount of stats it could possibly possess in its current state. If they *were* intended to only have gem slots, I would imagine they wouldn't even be over item level 100.

[Zik3l]

Comparing real life to a fantasy game, where items can give you powers is like comparing apples with a nuclear warhead. They aren't even remotely similar.

It isn't hard to imagine that an item in a fantasy game, can make you more agile, or improve your strength etc, so saying that just because a NPC says there empty is nothing to do with not having stats is kinda wrong. The in game world isn't realistic, it's not meant to be.

With regards to the ilevel, consider that they are 397 because they have the potential to be this powerful. They are still OK weps to new rogues. I would hazard a guess they may still be better than the ZA/ZG shit you get. I know that there is the whole maths side to ilevel, but you seem to struggle to consider that there might be something done off the beaten path here?

Either way the Stats / vs No stats in live argument is starting to wear thin, we won't know until it goes live.

[akteliae]

Comparing real life to a fantasy game, where items can give you powers is like comparing apples with a nuclear warhead. They aren't even remotely similar.

..The real-life comparison is because *npcs do not typically break the fourth wall, except for humor purposes*. Stats on items are a gameplay mechanic, not a lore relic. NPCs typically stay in-character. When an npc says something is 'empty', they aren't usually referring to stats.

It isn't hard to imagine that an item in a fantasy game, can make you more agile, or improve your strength etc, so saying that just because a NPC says there empty is nothing to do with not having stats is kinda wrong. The in game world isn't realistic, it's not meant to be.

I didn't say it's meant to be realistic, but it is meant to hold itself to a certain quality of in-characterness. Point out any other NPC in the game to me that directly references the way stats work on items in World of Warcraft. You'll find that they don't, and theres a reason for that. It's called immersion. Quest dialogue is written from an RP perspective (even if silly elements are often added), not from a game mechanic perspective.

With regards to the ilevel, consider that they are 397 because they have the potential to be this powerful. They are still OK weps to new rogues.

That doesn't make sense at all. The legendaries will be higher itemlevel than 397. 397 is actually exceedingly low for them. They'll be over 400 by a considerable little bit.

I would hazard a guess they may still be better than the ZA/ZG shit you get.

No, they wouldn't be. If the only stats on them were from gem slots, the only thing positive about them would be their damage. As important as damage can be, damage will not offset a near complete lack of stats.

I know that there is the whole maths side to ilevel, but you seem to struggle to consider that there might be something done off the beaten path here?

Look up the term 'Occam's Razor'. That's what I'm applying to this. Why on Earth would they create an item that their ilevel system doesn't function normally for *just* to do it? There's absolutely no basis for such an assumption. If you're having to tailor-make an assumption just for a statement to possibly be true, chances are you're grasping at straws.

Either way the Stats / vs No stats in live argument is starting to wear thin, we won't know until it goes live.

We won't know for sure until live, you're right. I don't know for sure that the afterlife isn't filled with flying pigs but the most logical guess is still that there are no flying pigs in the afterlife. It makes the fewest new assumptions, afterall.


Edit: To try to nip the 'empty means statless' thing in the bud, this is the actual NPC quote;

The daggers I have given you are lifeless shells. They can do great things, once they are given a means to contain the power I have in mind.

Lifeless shells. Not 'empty', but 'lifeless shells'. 'Lifeless shells' that aren't quite ready to 'contain the power (Wrathion has) in mind.'
That does not imply that the daggers are intended to be statless at stage one, it implies that they are merely regular daggers at that point in the questline that have not yet been infused with the powers of the black dragonflight/old gods that they are eventually intended to contain. Much the same as every other upgradeable-quest legendary. It doesn't mean they're intended to be unusable, it means *they aren't legendaries yet, but are legendaries in the making*.

[Zik3l]

I can see everything you are saying. I am not disagreeing with you. I am just taking the standpoint of; if what is currently on PTR goes into Live, this is how things will be.

I know PTR is subject to change. I know it is highly likely they will add stats. But there is a chance that they wont. And if you are going to say the simplest answer is usually the correct answer, you could swing that both ways and say "Well the simplest answer is that they are what they are on the PTR".

Just from some more napkin math, for combat (assuming combat works with daggers with no changes to damage - a large assumption) in standard t12 gear, the mainhand dagger statless adds 413.15 DPS. The offhand would obviously be less, probably to the point where it isn't worth using due to how much less Offhand dps is valued compared to mainhand.

From your previous posts in other threads, I'm not sure if you quite mean to, or just don't realize that you have a very aggressive way of wording things. Rather than leaving things up for discussion it is very "I'm right, you're wrong."

[akteliae]

I can see everything you are saying. I am not disagreeing with you. I am just taking the standpoint of; if what is currently on PTR goes into Live, this is how things will be.

I know PTR is subject to change. I know it is highly likely they will add stats. But there is a chance that they wont. And if you are going to say the simplest answer is usually the correct answer, you could swing that both ways and say "Well the simplest answer is that they are what they are on the PTR".

Just from some more napkin math, for combat (assuming combat works with daggers with no changes to damage - a large assumption) in standard t12 gear, the mainhand dagger statless adds 413.15 DPS. The offhand would obviously be less, probably to the point where it isn't worth using due to how much less Offhand dps is valued compared to mainhand.

From your previous posts in other threads, I'm not sure if you quite mean to, or just don't realize that you have a very aggressive way of wording things. Rather than leaving things up for discussion it is very "I'm right, you're wrong."

I'm verbose, not aggressive. You learn to live with it or you learn to hate me. Neither really affects me that much. But this thread is not about me or the way I post. It's just a little bit silly that the majority of the discussion lately has been about whether the stage ones have stats or not. There are plenty of indicators, as I've mentioned, that they're unfinished and will eventually have stats. It's not a matter of "I'm right, you're wrong", it's a matter of "pay attention to the details".

There's really nothing to be discussed regarding the stats thing, there's nothing to really speculate. They'll almost assuredly have stats, but if they don't, then it's not a question at all; they're trash for actual use if they are statless. Even compared to blue daggers they'd still be trash. Why? In that current state, the only stats you're looking at for them are a gem + the socket bonus. Using current gems, that's 50 agility on each dagger, and the weapon damage. That's it. 829-1541 is the damage-range on Ominous Shanker. 896-1346 Damage is the range on heroic Feeding Frenzy, which is 6 item levels lower. I'm sorry, but there's just simply nothing to 'speculate' on there.

Regarding your 'napkin math, completely disregarding that you're not taking into account the fact that it's a dagger and you're using current combat numbers, you may want to compare that number to the value of a 391 weapon. Because the average weapon is certainly worth more than a '413.15 DPS' addition.

[Zik3l]

Regarding your 'napkin math, completely disregarding that you're not taking into account the fact that it's a dagger and you're using current combat numbers, you may want to compare that number to the value of a 391 weapon. Because the average weapon is certainly worth more than a '413.15 DPS' addition.

I think you missed my point, There is no doubt that these weps would be anything but garbage without stats for anyone who has raided. I was comparing them with the daggers from ZG. ilevel 353. 48ilevels lower.

[akteliae]

I think you missed my point, There is no doubt that these weps would be anything but garbage without stats for anyone who has raided. I was comparing them with the daggers from ZG. ilevel 353. 48ilevels lower.

Then I'm not really sure why you're even wasting your time making that comparison, considering that the below items exist and do not require raiding, whereas the stage 1 daggers *will* require raiding to start the questline;

Jagged Edge of Time
Mandible of the Old Ones
Trickster's Edge

I'm sorry if you find my posts 'aggressive', but that's not really the case. The community on this website just has a very bad tendency to discuss things that aren't even worth discussing, and a tendency to ignore logic in favor of hyperbole and excitement. It doesn't take looking very far to realize that.

[Zik3l]

The new 5man weps are a good point. I had not thought of that.

I was simply thinking of the people who many level an alt rogue, go to ZG/ZA, get loot, pug first 3 bosses, and pay the money for some minor upgrades and to see the quest line.

---------- Post added 2011-10-26 at 03:57 PM ----------

Stealing from thread: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...procs-from-1-3

Datamined procs:
First set http://ptr.wowhead.com/itemset=1089
Two http://ptr.wowhead.com/itemset=1088
Three and the legendary http://ptr.wowhead.com/itemset=1087

[Coldkil]

Set procs are:
- first step = 100 agi. if the daggers don't have other stats, they won't be so useful.
- second step = 250 agi. Better, but still if they lack other stats the situation above repeats.
- third step = legendary proc maens literally 6 free finishers in a row, which is really good. The agi bonus will vary from 510 to 850 agi, which is extremely good. Anyway, the lack of secondary stats is a little bad, especially for reforging purposes.

If the daggers stay as they are now, i think i'm using them only when i get the big oranges, the first two steps seem very lackluster to me.

[akteliae]

That only further convinces me that they're intended to eventually have stats. Otherwise the proc is extremely (and I do mean *extremely*) under-budget on the first set, as their combined total agility at max stacks would still be lower than the amount of agility on a single equal-level dagger. So yeah, I'd say the most reasonable guess is that itemization simply hasn't happened yet.

[Coldkil]

That only further convinces me that they're intended to eventually have stats. Otherwise the proc is extremely (and I do mean *extremely*) under-budget on the first set, as their combined total agility at max stacks would still be lower than the amount of agility on a single equal-level dagger. So yeah, I'd say the most reasonable guess is that itemization simply hasn't happened yet.

Same thoughts. I also expect the 3rd step to have stats too.

[Deleted]

another question im thinking off since a few days. i did the questline on the ptr until the first step of the daggers. so the whole q line ravenhold play a role ( my english is so bad fuck, hope anyone knows what i mean )


my problem is , im scared, maybe in the q line u have to be exalted with that faction? could that be?
my dilemma is , i hate to farm this boxes so much,
the decision is , - farming them now and be really fucked up if i dont neet rhe repultation
- dont farm the rep. and beeing fucked up if u really need it and loose a lot of time than
- dont farm and we dont need it and feel happy

so anyone here think its possible that ravenhold exaulted can be or u dont think?

[Rogueslol]

another question im thinking off since a few days. i did the questline on the ptr until the first step of the daggers. so the whole q line ravenhold play a role ( my english is so bad fuck, hope anyone knows what i mean )


my problem is , im scared, maybe in the q line u have to be exalted with that faction? could that be?
my dilemma is , i hate to farm this boxes so much,
the decision is , - farming them now and be really fucked up if i dont neet rhe repultation
- dont farm the rep. and beeing fucked up if u really need it and loose a lot of time than
- dont farm and we dont need it and feel happy

so anyone here think its possible that ravenhold exaulted can be or u dont think?

So what you're basically trying to say is, do we need to be exalted with Ravenholdt to obtain the dagger? That is a good question to be honest, I don't even know.

[akteliae]

another question im thinking off since a few days. i did the questline on the ptr until the first step of the daggers. so the whole q line ravenhold play a role ( my english is so bad fuck, hope anyone knows what i mean )


my problem is , im scared, maybe in the q line u have to be exalted with that faction? could that be?
my dilemma is , i hate to farm this boxes so much,
the decision is , - farming them now and be really fucked up if i dont neet rhe repultation
- dont farm the rep. and beeing fucked up if u really need it and loose a lot of time than
- dont farm and we dont need it and feel happy

so anyone here think its possible that ravenhold exaulted can be or u dont think?

I highly, highly, highly doubt Ravenholdt rep has anything at all to do with the questline. The part of the quest that goes into Ravenholdt isn't exactly working *with* Ravenholdt. You're infiltrating (a.k.a. breaking in) to locate the egg there with the objective of not getting caught.

[Deleted]

another question im thinking off since a few days. i did the questline on the ptr until the first step of the daggers. so the whole q line ravenhold play a role ( my english is so bad fuck, hope anyone knows what i mean )


my problem is , im scared, maybe in the q line u have to be exalted with that faction? could that be?
my dilemma is , i hate to farm this boxes so much,
the decision is , - farming them now and be really fucked up if i dont neet rhe repultation
- dont farm the rep. and beeing fucked up if u really need it and loose a lot of time than
- dont farm and we dont need it and feel happy

so anyone here think its possible that ravenhold exaulted can be or u dont think?

I doubt it. Not that it really matters for me since im exalted. But i really really doubt it. Cause thats a really terrible boring, not hard, just one terrible grind. We havent really seen those out of the raid grinds since Vanilla. And i doubt they will make a return now, when Blizz is trying to remove as much "grinding" as possible.

[RemJay24]

Though I have no proof - I really doubt rep. with Ravenholdt will play a role here. That would force a situation with multiple rogues in a guild of, "whose our best rogue" versus "which of the rogues is exalted."

People already dislike the Rogue-only legendary... such as those 10mans without a Rogue. Then to top it off with "you need to be exalted!" is a slap in the face.

Maybe I should grind rep for that slight off chance it will happen... to ensure I get the legendary first! :-P

[akteliae]

An interesting spell on the PTR that could be the answer to how Combat will use these: http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=110211
(If that is indeed the case, it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out for Killing Spree usage. The most immediate thing I could think of to resolve that is if they normalize it between daggers and non-daggers in some manner, which would make sense given that they'll have to do that come 5.0 anyway)

The actual named, stat-having Stage 1 Daggers, courtesy of Sakuratei over on EJ:



(This is the part where I say "I told you so" )

The Stage 1 version of the proc seems to have a rather low proc-rate, but I'd assume that's intentional so that they aren't *too* strong, now that they're *actually* itemized.

[Deleted]

So they actually have 3 secondary stats instead of 2? Thats already pretty awesome, even without an intense procc.