[Moonkin] Guide :: 5.4 Edition

[huth]

Looks like SunF missed the int part while updating the guide.

[Juvencus]

I won't quote since its a pain on phone.

I'm pretty sure crit effects like windsong are dynamic regarding dots.

Also the intel vs crit conversion to % seems about right. Dont forget that gens have double budget of secondaries making 600 crit easier to get than 555 intel.

The first (5273) breakpoint seems to be an excemption to the "dont stack if u cant reach it" rule as reforging haste out below that point willleave you with pathetic cast times and eclipse+ng uptimes

[huth]

No, crit from int is definitely wrong, it should be somewhere between 1800 to 2000 int per crit%.

Otherwise i'd have over 25% crit just from int, that can't be right.

[Deleted]

The guide is pretty horrible quite honestly, and the scaling factors especially are way off. (not to mention bits and bobs of other things) I don't have a time to write a guide myself, but have done some simming with my current/projected gear and I'm seeing int win out over crit pretty much every time. Should get some heroic gear tonight to test with too after raid, but right now I'm seeing mastery do pretty well vs haste too at low haste. Running a few million more iterations in different conditions now to confirm that too. Also seems starsurge use prio affects values more than I expected.

Would be nice if we could have a proper moonkin guide though.

Posting some crap below for those that want to sim themselves:

tldr: in my gear lvl atm (475~) stats SEEM to be: int > hit > crit > mastery > haste (1:0.47:0.39:0.36:0.24)

# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=80
# gear_agility=80
# gear_stamina=14690
# gear_intellect=12584
# gear_spirit=5141
# gear_spell_power=5152
# gear_expertise_rating=139
# gear_crit_rating=4534
# gear_haste_rating=2656
# gear_mastery_rating=1728
# gear_armor=16500
# meta_gem=burning_primal
# back=dreadful_gladiators_drape_of_cruelty,addon=goblin_glider
# hands=dreadful_gladiators_wyrmhide_gloves,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii
# waist=hurricane_belt,addon=nitro_boosts
# main_hand=carapace_breaker,weapon=mace_1.90speed_1620min_3009max,enchant=windsong

[Sunfyre]

No, crit from int is definitely wrong, it should be somewhere between 1800 to 2000 int per crit%.

Otherwise i'd have over 25% crit just from int, that can't be right.

I missed updating that number from the 4.3 guide. Let me pull out the new numbers. Updated based on the numbers Hamlet has shown for int to crit.

---------- Post added 2012-10-17 at 03:35 PM ----------

The guide is pretty horrible quite honestly, and the scaling factors especially are way off. (not to mention bits and bobs of other things) I don't have a time to write a guide myself, but have done some simming with my current/projected gear and I'm seeing int win out over crit pretty much every time. Should get some heroic gear tonight to test with too after raid, but right now I'm seeing mastery do pretty well vs haste too at low haste. Running a few million more iterations in different conditions now to confirm that too. Also seems starsurge use prio affects values more than I expected.

Would be nice if we could have a proper moonkin guide though.

Posting some crap below for those that want to sim themselves:

tldr: in my gear lvl atm (475~) stats SEEM to be: int > hit > crit > mastery > haste (1:0.47:0.39:0.36:0.24)

# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=80
# gear_agility=80
# gear_stamina=14690
# gear_intellect=12584
# gear_spirit=5141
# gear_spell_power=5152
# gear_expertise_rating=139
# gear_crit_rating=4534
# gear_haste_rating=2656
# gear_mastery_rating=1728
# gear_armor=16500
# meta_gem=burning_primal
# back=dreadful_gladiators_drape_of_cruelty,addon=goblin_glider
# hands=dreadful_gladiators_wyrmhide_gloves,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii
# waist=hurricane_belt,addon=nitro_boosts
# main_hand=carapace_breaker,weapon=mace_1.90speed_1620min_3009max,enchant=windsong

The ElitistJerks guide maintained by Hamlet also maintains haste to breakpoint, and then int > crit > haste > mastery.

No one is saying crit is better than int. However, int is not twice as good as crit, therefor making crit gems superior (since they have changed secondary stat budgeting on gems in Mists of Pandaria).

If you want to point out specific issues, go ahead, but to say the entire guide is horrible, provide no specific cases, and then make assumptions based on things actually not stated in the guide is not useful to anyone.

[Deleted]

I missed updating that number from the 4.3 guide. Let me pull out the new numbers. Updated based on the numbers Hamlet has shown for int to crit.

---------- Post added 2012-10-17 at 03:35 PM ----------



The ElitistJerks guide maintained by Hamlet also maintains haste to breakpoint, and then int > crit > haste > mastery.

No one is saying crit is better than int. However, int is not twice as good as crit, therefor making crit gems superior (since they have changed secondary stat budgeting on gems in Mists of Pandaria).

If you want to point out specific issues, go ahead, but to say the entire guide is horrible, provide no specific cases, and then make assumptions based on things actually not stated in the guide is not useful to anyone.

I'm currently simming int as better than 2xcrit. (1> 2x0.45) I'm seeing nothing in the guide addressing different stat prios for different levels of movement. I'm seeing nothing in the guide addressing mastery being ahead on very heavy movement. I'm seeing nothing in the guide addressing stat values for multi target fights. I'm seeing nothing in the guide addressing the viable use of the other meta gem.

What I am seeing is you regurgitating other provided info without simming anything yourself, without asking or answering any of the questions I've asked and without providing any numbers, reasoning, backups, or gearsets for your numbers. For example you list 'stat weights' - quieth intentionally never listed those because he knew they changed with gear and other factors. A random guy coming across the guide might take that as gospel and just gem/reforge accordingly. You've not showed mastery (or any other values) relative to movement... It just seems sloppy in the extreme. You've not even linked the EJ guide.

As an aside, if anybody knows how to setup wrathcalcs/simcraft for 2/multiple targets could you give me a poke please.

[brinohm]

Well in the "for what it's worth" department, I thought the guide was very helpful.

We went 4/6 reg in 10m last night and I played with reforging crit or haste between a couple fights to get a feel for real dps difference for my play style and I found crit to be superior for how much haste I could get (somewhere around 4300'ish).

I was gem'd and reforged for haste (a little over 10% haste) on Stone Guard and Feng (WoL in case anyone wants to peek http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...mf4/details/7/) and then switched to crit for Gara and Spirit Kings (for Gara I was in most of the time and the logger was out, so I'm not sure how accurate those stats are). I found that, especially for fights where you're dealing with a lot of adds, it was like Sunfyre and some others mentioned, the dots really benefit from the crit when you're below the 5273 haste breakpoint. I found my dps to be better on the whole, especially for the amount of movement that happens in some of the fights like Spirit Kings, which is hard to measure on a dummy.

[mikoslav]

I'm seeing nothing in the guide addressing mastery being ahead on very heavy movement.

I personally think crit is better for heavy movement encounters. more instant SSs

[Sunfyre]

I'm currently simming int as better than 2xcrit. (1> 2x0.45) I'm seeing nothing in the guide addressing different stat prios for different levels of movement. I'm seeing nothing in the guide addressing mastery being ahead on very heavy movement. I'm seeing nothing in the guide addressing stat values for multi target fights. I'm seeing nothing in the guide addressing the viable use of the other meta gem.

What I am seeing is you regurgitating other provided info without simming anything yourself, without asking or answering any of the questions I've asked and without providing any numbers, reasoning, backups, or gearsets for your numbers. For example you list 'stat weights' - quieth intentionally never listed those because he knew they changed with gear and other factors. A random guy coming across the guide might take that as gospel and just gem/reforge accordingly. You've not showed mastery (or any other values) relative to movement... It just seems sloppy in the extreme. You've not even linked the EJ guide.

As an aside, if anybody knows how to setup wrathcalcs/simcraft for 2/multiple targets could you give me a poke please.

Really? The only moonkin guide I list is for Hamlet's EJ moonkin guide. The statweights come from Starfox who has done basically all of the heavy lifting with SimCraft and Balance Druids. I've yet to see anything substantial regarding preferring mastery over haste for *any* type of fight. Every credible balance druid theorycrafter is advocating haste over mastery (even after breakpoint). Advanced players are also using spirit/crit damage metas because of stat weightings on crit. This isn't just me.

If you want to write a better guide, do it. No one is stopping you. If not, stop attacking me and mine. There's a way to provide constructive feedback. What you're doing isn't it.

[Kritkin]

Wow who is this guy? And has it not been made clear the guide is a work in progress and is being updated?

[CaseyTheRetard]

The numbers in the Intellect section - 1 Intellect on gear provides 1.169 SP and 2168 Intellect provides 1% crit chance - assume the 6% passive Intellect increase from Heart of the Wild. Without HotW, those numbers are 1.05*1.05 = 1.1025 SP per Intellect on gear and 2536.66/(1.05*1.05) = 2298.104 gear Intellect per 1% crit chance. If the stat weights were generated from a profile without HotW - and I have to assume that is the case since Sunfyre doesn't cite a source and the Simulationcraft T14H profile uses NV - then the factor for Intellect should be 1.05*1.05*(SP + 600/2536.66 * Crit). For the weights given that comes out to 1.05*1.05*(.76 + 600/2536.66 * 0.67) = 1.01. That's within 1% of the Intellect scale factor, so I'll say the stat weights are likely sane.

I think it would avoid confusion to list the numbers with and without HotW in the Intellect stat description, since it's far from a ubiquitous talent choice.

[Stommped]

As some people have hinted at in this thread recently, I am seeing Haste as the best secondary stat regardless of your current gear. i.e. below, at, above, significantly above the bp still show (the discrepancy obviously varies) a pretty constant haste > crit > mastery preference. And as long as the breakpoint isn't in play, Int appears to consistently be more than 2x as good as haste. Meaning we can gem the same way we were in Cataclysm. Haste also has hidden benefits that a spreadsheet cannot pick up (i.e. quicker casts = less likely to have to move for damage and interrupt that cast).

All in all, I think it is absolutely worth doing whatever you can to get to the 5270 bp (and it is completely possible in all blues), from there you can't really go wrong going for haste or crit, although haste appears to be better imo. My source is simply playing around with different gems/gear/reforges in Wrathcalcs while at work.

[Deleted]

As some people have hinted at in this thread recently, I am seeing Haste as the best secondary stat regardless of your current gear. i.e. below, at, above, significantly above the bp still show (the discrepancy obviously varies) a pretty constant haste > crit > mastery preference. And as long as the breakpoint isn't in play, Int appears to consistently be more than 2x as good as haste. Meaning we can gem the same way we were in Cataclysm. Haste also has hidden benefits that a spreadsheet cannot pick up (i.e. quicker casts = less likely to have to move for damage and interrupt that cast).

All in all, I think it is absolutely worth doing whatever you can to get to the 5270 bp (and it is completely possible in all blues), from there you can't really go wrong going for haste or crit, although haste appears to be better imo. My source is simply playing around with different gems/gear/reforges in Wrathcalcs while at work.

Any chance you could try in simcraft too and link me your wrathcalcs/simcraft profiles please matey? Because I'm seeing crit constantly come out ahead, and sometimes mastery beating haste. I am seeing crit come out on top in heavy movement, though I guess that's to be expected too.

edit: never mind, doing it myself :P Getting the same results as you too. Pretty interesting as the gearsets I've tried with so far (mine, celebrity, lappé) have all had crit topping. The only consistent result I'm seeing is that int is always > 2x secondary.

---------- Post added 2012-10-18 at 12:37 AM ----------

I personally think crit is better for heavy movement encounters. more instant SSs

I meant ahead of haste, not crit. Sorry for the ambiguity.

[Sunfyre]

After speaking with a lot of people, including balance druids in 6/6 Heroic, it appears full crit is more useful in 4/6 Mogu'shan Vaults. Any fight that has multiple DoT targets, the additional crit is going to end up giving an advantage due to additional chances for shooting stars. Haste breakpoint does win out on single target fights. I will update the guide to discuss the difference between the two.

[Deleted]

Still working on it, but doing some maths atm with different numbers of targets to see where exactly crit lies vs haste (obviously it'll depend on your int too). Worked the numbers through some binomial distribution atm and crit seems to be winning out; though i havnt yet applied the actual ss chance or extra dot damage into the equations yet.

ps. you might want to change the opening rotation a little; you have it like this atm:

Start fight one cast pre-Lunar.
Starfall
Wrath once
Incarnation
Nature's Vigil (if you have it)
Starfall
Sunfire, Moonfire (whilst jumping)

I'd change it to

Start fight one cast pre-Lunar.
Starfall
Wrath once
Incarnation
Nature's Vigil (if you have it)
Sunfire, Moonfire
Starsurge
Starfall

Otherwise you lose a lot of seconds on the first starfall buff as the 2nd just overrides it.

[Stommped]

After speaking with a lot of people, including balance druids in 6/6 Heroic, it appears full crit is more useful in 4/6 Mogu'shan Vaults. Any fight that has multiple DoT targets, the additional crit is going to end up giving an advantage due to additional chances for shooting stars. Haste breakpoint does win out on single target fights. I will update the guide to discuss the difference between the two.

I mean that seems to be a logical blanket statement, but it's not like Haste doesn't see the benefit from multiple targets to dot as well. More targets with dots rolling above the breakpoint = more dot damage. And when you say 4/6 I am not sure if you are counting Garajal (dotting targets in the spirit realm) or Elegon (dotting Celestial Protectors, Sparks, Pillars, adds). In either case the damage on the boss is far, far more important (although there might be something to said about getting a bunch of SS procs to use on Garajal from dots rolling in the spirit realm). For Spirit Kings it is absolutely essential to kill the boss that is sub 30% rather than worry about multi dotting the new boss that spawns. The enrage timer is no longer a factor so you really gain nothing from dotting the newly spawn added besides prolonging the time your raid has to deal with two bosses simultaneously (unless you can get enough SS procs from the extra dots to offset the waste globals, but it would have to be alot).

And again in all three of those fights (not sure which 2 you are counting) the ability to multi dot is not always there. Garajal only when you go down to the spirit realm, Spirit Kings only when the active boss is below 30%, Elegon really only when a Protector spawns, which only occurs when the boss' health is above 50%.

So in my opinion it's more like 2/6 (Stong Guard and Will) where you will have multiple targets to dot throughout the entirety of the fight, and it is beneficial to the raid to do so.

[Deleted]

I mean that seems to be a logical blanket statement, but it's not like Haste doesn't see the benefit from multiple targets to dot as well. More targets with dots rolling above the breakpoint = more dot damage. And when you say 4/6 I am not sure if you are counting Garajal (dotting targets in the spirit realm) or Elegon (dotting Celestial Protectors, Sparks, Pillars, adds). In either case the damage on the boss is far, far more important (although there might be something to said about getting a bunch of SS procs to use on Garajal from dots rolling in the spirit realm). For Spirit Kings it is absolutely essential to kill the boss that is sub 30% rather than worry about multi dotting the new boss that spawns. The enrage timer is no longer a factor so you really gain nothing from dotting the newly spawn added besides prolonging the time your raid has to deal with two bosses simultaneously (unless you can get enough SS procs from the extra dots to offset the waste globals, but it would have to be alot).

[warning: napkin maths] Simplistically, each dot is worth around 0.756 extra starsurge procs @ 21% crit (around 2500 haste) as opposed to 0.4 extra starsurge procs @ 15% crit (haste cap) or not multidotting at all (0 extra procs) - which translates into roughly 83% chance of 2+ crits when single targeting @ 15% or 80% chance of 6+ crits when multidotting. More simplistically you'll get around a 50% chance of 1 ss proc single targeting (15% crit, hastecapped), or a 50% chance of 4 ss procs when multidotting both (21% crit, 2500~ haste).

[huth]

<written things. Read make eye hurt>

What's the point of the jumping?

[CaseyTheRetard]

What's the point of the jumping?

Probably a holdover from Cata, when Lunar Shower required you to be moving.

[Deleted]

Probably a holdover from Cata, when Lunar Shower required you to be moving.

Aye, never really realised you didn't have to be moving any more. I like to be a jumping owl anyway so never bothered me :P