DPS is NOT a measure of work put into the scenario. A raider equipped in L372 gear is putting in less work to get 10k DPS than a raider with Level 359 gear.
Fine. Let the tank do it on his own.And again, as I said previously, even if he did put in the work and effort, hes still doing it in a less stressful job.
Thing is......its a group effort. None can do it by themselves.
LFR is likely to fail anyway because its not going to attract raiders. Its meant for people who can't raid or won't raid. A small subset of those will graduate to full raids but the truth is, the LFR won't make people have more time to play or give them a more regular schedule. And with no system in place by which they can gear up - no guild rules or anything else to enforce a FAIR distribution of loot - its going to lose a lot of the incentive for even those players to run it.And you are right, MS > OS is a gaming convention.... for now. Hopefully come 4.3 it will be a system convention. Otherwise, LFR isn't going to work, cause tanks and healers straight up won't queue, except for the scrubbiest of scrubs who have no other alternatives to gear up.
And no, this system isn't fair. There is too much crossover in stats, too much desire to gear up, too little opportunity to change accoridignt ot he needs of the raid. This issue is trying to solve a problem that shouldn't be a problem.
There does need to be a methodology for fiar distribution of loot.
But this idea of a role bonus is inherently unfair and open to abuse and problems. If Blizzard truly bvelieves this is an issue that really needs to be addressed, then it should instead look at the existing systems in use today and try to implement them in game instead of replacing one system seen as unfair with another system seen as unfair.
Take DKP for example - guilds use that to have players buy gear in raids...so what if that role bonus was replaced by a VP bonus - you could buy a bonus to your Need roll by spending VP on it.
EJL
Last edited by Talen; 2011-10-11 at 02:51 AM.
I have done all rolls in 6+ years of player wow and it goes Healer > Tank > DPS
And that is just a fact u have to hack when ur dps. I was dps for 1 year and tank for most the other as well as heals for one patch and as dps i knew this was the fact and i had to deal with it.
2 tank 5 heals and a trillion dps, if they kept the same system tanks would NEVER get gear because of dps ninja's. It is not ur right as dps to get tank or heals gear over them. It is not even ur right as dps to say which bosses u will kill first because you do not lead the group and can be replaced easy.
DPS have to deal with the fact that they are the least important and easiest to replace. If your not used to it after this long playing best u go find urself a single player game and feel important there.
Aye mate
Thats fair in some ways and unfair in others.
And this is just a great example of why some people like to keep tanks down. Too many tanks start acting like little dictators the moment they think they are irreplaceable.It is not even ur right as dps to say which bosses u will kill first because you do not lead the group and can be replaced easy.
DPS may be the easiest to replace, but thats not the same as unimportant.DPS have to deal with the fact that they are the least important and easiest to replace. If your not used to it after this long playing best u go find urself a single player game and feel important there.
EJL
Last edited by Talen; 2011-10-11 at 02:51 AM.
The healer is more important then me and know this, if the healer wanta to do something i will go along with what they say.
With the "dictator" bs, the amount of bad players (This is because one hitting mobs and steam rolling 5mans lving don't teach u anything) in wow now is a joke so i tell them what the fuck to do because they are to brain dead to read up on there class for FIVE mins and learn how the hell to play it. I have 6 lv 85 dpsers and have only ever lost dps to raid geared guidies in my shitty blue sets. I would be happy if i came last in dps because then i know the other people know what they are doing.
Aye mate
I think all in all it is a rather positive change. Ninjaing will be harder to do. If someone needs an item and gains the bonus because it is for his/her class/spec then there is no more room for debate on who gets loot.
I hope they also add, if you already have the item, or a better ilvl item, you cannot gain the need bonus. Just a thought, but all in all a positive thing this is.
Would this translate into: "Do it the way **I** do it or you aren't doing it right"?
The implication being that YOU know what you are doing. Which may or may not be true. There are bad DPS out there, thats true. But attitudes like yours aren't really desireable either.I have 6 lv 85 dpsers and have only ever lost dps to raid geared guidies in my shitty blue sets. I would be happy if i came last in dps because then i know the other people know what they are doing.
The system won't work well unless it accounts for a LOT of posisbilities.
IF it does account for those possibilities, it takes gearing decisions away from the player.
All this to avoid the situation "I lost a roll and want that item".
EJL
Last edited by Talen; 2011-10-11 at 02:52 AM.
a "VPDKP" system would be more akin to a GDKP system than a real DKP system, as the whole idea behind a DKP system is to have an unbiased system of loot distribution based upon raid attendance and recent previously won items in a guild raid setting, where as GDKP is way for good raiders to make gold by carrying baddies who bought gold off ebay or who do nothing but farm or play the AH. VPDKP would result in whoever grinded to the valor cap every week would get an advantage in loot rolls, which is WAY less fair than giving people who are performing a role for you in a raid get a priority on gear that will help them perform their role better. And if you're gonna quote me, quote the whole thing, since I cleary stated that not being geared is lack of work, and not performing in the raid (whether its because you don't know how to play your class, or youre watching a movie and just spamming arcane blast or sinister strike) is a lack of effort, either one is bad. Honestly, all you sound like is someone who plays mainly DPS and has an axe to grind with tanks and healers. Why you want healers and tanks to be able to roll on your gear, I dunno.... maybe you play hunter and resto shammies are really your only concern to contend with.
A DPS druid will be able to roll on anything leather.
Actually, as all healing gear is now suitable for DPS roles, it will still be perfectly ninjable
---------- Post added 2011-10-08 at 08:27 PM ----------
I think you don't get it.
Protecting from what you are described is one the few things this system does achieve.
---------- Post added 2011-10-08 at 08:33 PM ----------
In order of how screwed up the system is:
Druids and shamans in DPS role will be able to roll on anything of their armour type, while healers and bears will be restricted to their stat type.
Clothies will also be able to roll on anything, but they at least have only one base stat.
Str weapons: both prots and DPS specs of wars and DKs use 1h, bots tank DKs and DPS wars and retris use 2h.
It works perfectly fine for plate armour. DPS plate is for DPS, tank plate is for tanks, heal plate is for holydins.
this still does not help hybrid classes or keep them from rolling on other people gear. As an ele shaman spirit is the same as hit but if I roll need on an item with spirit it will more then likely be flagged as a healer piece. But also as a dps roll ill be able to have equal need rolls as rogues even though I have no use for agility.
I don't think clothies will be able to roll on anything. Why would a mage or warlock get to roll on +spirit gear? Shadow priests, like druids and shamans in dps will be able to roll on anything in their armor type, but disc and holy if queued as healers will be restricted to spirit cloth, and mages and locks restricted to cloth with two secondary stats (spirit is sort of a secondary stat these days but its still one of the 5 base stats).
If the system is working as described, my role is tank and the agi piece that drops is more than likely going to be flagged as dps gear. That is the issue. So it's either going to default to me as the druid tank or default to the dps, or it's going to be an even roll across the board in which case why have the system in place at all? Same thing applies to hybrid casters in the case of spirit gear and DK tanks vs plate dps in the case of 2h strength weapons. There are going to be so many situations where two different roles compete for the same gear that the fair solution is to simply /roll and there is no point to their loot system.
This is prolly the best thing they could have done concering this. I see no flaws in it whatsoever. that is if they are able to rightly set up specs for items, which i think they can.
If that's completely how the flagging system works, then we have a problem. The way I understood it, a player is tagged as a tank, healer, or DPS and that won't change regardless of the player's spec for a specific pull and if my bear goes Boomkin because a boss only needs 1 tank, I can still roll on the agi leather, but not the int leather. Obviously, this still leaves the problem described above about feral/boom DPS and enhance/ele, but so long as the ITEMS are role/Class specified and not just role specified, most* of the issues are solved.
I highly doubt they add such a feature. It would be way too much work for them to check not only your gear, but your inventory and your bank aswell. Not to mention that you might want to "need" two or more of the same item for different gemming specs.
This is true. Quoting from Blizzards official announcement:
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Not sure if they will make an exception for 2h weapons. If they don't, I can see a lot of rage coming their way.
My Gaming Setup | WoW Paladin (retired)
"This is not a dress. This is a sacred robe of the ancient psychedelic monks."
No, because it says it will look at "class role" and not only "role". So they can obviously flag items as "DK TANK" and "WARRIOR TANK".
The only problem I see is the druid class:
A druid that entered the dungeon as DPS could either be a moonkin or a kitty. So he will be able to roll on agi and int items, competing with all healers, casters, enhancer, rogues, hunters and even feral tanks.
Feral Druid will be a mess, could be a tank or a dps. Unless they use the system Puri described.
If a Feral Druid selects role of Tank then a flag for Feral Tank on tanking gear will let him roll on it. But if he selects dps he will be flagged as Feral DPS and not be able to roll on that same piece of tanking gear.
This same way a Shadow Priest can be allowed to roll on spirit gear. But this will create alot of "Roles" where some would need to get specially tagged to certain items. And it wouldnt surprise me one bit some items will be forgotten. So i still think loot will be a mess, and loot drama is raid killer nr.#1.
This could be very easily solved by implementing a "hidden" check for damage dealers. Imagine if when accepting the role check as damage, the system looks at your base stats and decides you are either a "caster dps" or a "physical dps" by seeing if you're stacking INT or not. So there would actually be 4 roles in the system, but only 3 visible to players.
In all honesty, I'd rather have a DPS pulling 6k in full 391/397 gear than have someone with Airwaves' attitude and god complex in my raid at any time. Nothing brings down a raid like a player spouting bullshit all night long.
On topic: This is a very good thing. DPS gear would have been taken by healers/tanks a lot more than healing/tank gear taken by DPS and this new roll system fixes it. Hopefully it's applied to 5 mans in the near future.
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