The problem with flat buffing fire without altering it,

[ssviolett]

Arcane gets an easy reputation of being "easy" since if someone doesn't play end-game raiding, they think it is like doing a 5man or baradin hold. Arcane is extremely sensitive to movement and extremely sensitive to disruptions, interrupts, knockbacks.

For example, if you pop your cooldowns for burning and you miss 2 or 3 seconds only of that burn your DPS will fall like a rock. The reasons those Blasts may be lost are various, knockbacks, interrupts, have to move, you're called by a raid leader to go elsewhere, big bad random ability comes that calls you to 'connect the link' with someone, etc.

Hell, even if you don't do 2 Arcane Blasts in the burn phase out of lag for 2 seconds or for another reason like knockbacks from a boss damage that pulsates, the drop will be very noticeable.


Compare that to fire that can jump around like a goat and still lose a minimal dps (scorch for 2 seconds instead of fireball, boohoo, there will be ignite, living bomb, pyroblast dot, or combustion on the target unaffected during the time). And even stupid mistakes can be saved with cauterize. Fire is simply easier. And I did start with fire and I loved it. It's not a rant by someone that doesn't know other specs, I've played all 3 properly.

I play arcane, having 6\7 HM progress and currently progressing at H Rag, and I must admit that you pretty overestimate Arcane difficulty. Yes its about avoiding shit and moving, but isnt it usual tactic versus bosses ? To avoid shit, to not stay in fire ? You cant change it - when you need to move - you move, only knowledge you need - is WHEN to move, so you wont waste CD's moving. It is good that fire is so easy for you - but for me it is not. You need to move - and in the SAME time you need to watch over insta pyro, cast scorch, refresh lb and in additional to this all fish for lucky comb. To make so many actions in the same time and moving constantly - is not really easy - at least for me.

[Blueobelisk]

Have you read any of the previews for the Deathwing raid?
There's adds and movement all over the place.

Actually I haven't sorry lol but if what you are saying is true then...arcane won't be viable with too much movement/distance AoE.

Damn you got me excited man.

[Deleted]

inc #1 wol rankings from terrible mages no one's ever heard of due to rng/luck. at least arcane is consistent and you can tell who's good and who's bad.

People who parse ranks 1's have and always will be those getting 3 pi's 15 tricks dark intent etc, Just have a look down Baleroc Arcane. And one of the reasons arcane is so consistent there is cause there isn't really much to get wrong outside of errors with mana management. Not saying Fire is harder or anything, dont derail the thread

[Styxz]

This thread is nothing more than another of the dozens of "my spec bettea than urs" fanboy thread :/

Yes arcane suffers from movement, every spec does better dps when they don't have to move. What does that have to do with recent fire buffs? What doesyour preferance for arcane matter in terms of flat buffs over elaborate overhauls for fire?

You'd have done better to post this in another of the spec v spec threads op.

[Jervaise]

or why fire requires slight inferiority to Arcane as it is now:

As it is obvious to anyone that plays end-game raiding in Arcane, the spec is not easy at all [compared to 5mans and BH]. Only if the fight is very stationary, such as being on Baleroc and and not moving that much, or in Majordomo, then it is possible to do high dps. The problem with fire being buffed directly is that it's an extremely easy spec to play. You are not positioned properly? No problem, keep running about jumping up and down while doing a scorch or two. It won't destroy your dps, after all, your Living Bomb, your Ignite, your Combustion, your Pyroblast dot, will be on the target, no much harm done. Same if you completely misposition yourself and you're called by someone to change position. No problem, just run there for even 50 yards. You will not kill your dps.

Now try this with Arcane. If you are not positioned properly, or the fight inherently has tons of movement, or if you are being interrupted - or knocked back - right after pulling cooldowns - hell - then you are destroyed. Miss a couple of arcane blasts? Hell.

Plus, Cauterize.

Fire is "technically" more complex but in reality the gameplay is plainly easier.

IF the buf gives it "equality" with Arcane, I will HAVE to go with fire since that mathematical "equality" will be in reality a clear superiority, since it will be much easier to play optimally. Let alone survive stupid mistakes.


IF the buf gives it mathematical superiority, it plainly kills that Arcane spec no questions asked, but that may be already the case.


Also, we will have problems in various guilds that have setup their 3%+ bufs etc, around their setup and this will disturb it.

I hope what this does is to give slight inferiority, so that taking fire will be on equal grounds and the choice would be based on what is fun or more optimal for a raid buf's.

you could have posted this while raiding as arcane and killing baleroc maintaining top 2 dps

jokes aside, I agree with you on most points. However I still like fire mechanics way more than mana management. There is no valid reason why specs cannot be kept at similar levels letting everyone play what they like.

[Exeris]

what do you guys think about the fire changes we've seen so far?

i think it's looking promising GO FIRE!

I like.

But still hope they will add at some point a talent to buff crit for fireball like rogues get for backstab, would be so nice to get more reliable high crits for combustion and hotstreak.

[Deleted]

Ok, before people were complaining about that fire isn't even competible whit arcane. Now people complain about arcane might not be competitive whit fire ;S gogo

[Exeris]

Ok, before people were complaining about that fire isn't even competible whit arcane. Now people complain about arcane might not be competitive whit fire ;S gogo

Yeah imagine that, that different people might like different specs. Or even like to play both. :s

[Statix]

Arcane is easy to play, but hard to master. It's really easy to get a nice steady amount of DPS, but it's hard to get to those sky-high burst amounts. A few months ago I was explaining to another Mage how he should start each fight and he didn't understand. He just kept doing Arcane Blastx4 and Arcane Missiles. It gave him a steady DPS of 20k, but he didn't do any burst which could have increased his damage done.

As for Fire being easier than Arcane, yes, it is. Fire is pretty straight forward. Get crits for Ignite and Hot Streak! procs and keep Living Bomb and Critical Mass up all the while spamming Fireball. Arcane requires more management and therefore it's harder.

Arcane is easier to play (with a two button rotation if you suck, yes, anyone that says Arcane is a two button rotation sucks balls) than Fire, but Fire is a lot easier to master than Arcane. The fact that noob Arcane Mages out DPS imba Fire Mages is because Fire is gimped. It's ruined. No direct damage increase on Fire spells is gonna change that. Even if all spells would deal 50% more damage, Fire would still be sub-par compared to other specs. Fire needs to be overhauled completely. Fire DoT's should be made more important. Mastery should become Fire's best stat.

A way to simply solve all Fire problems is to let Ignite be applied from hits aswell and give Hot Streak! a proc chance of 10-15%.

This would make critical strike rating far less important for Mages, removing most of the RNG component of Fire. Mastery would become a lot better, probably even the best stat as Ignite will always be up and the damage gets increased by our mastery.

[Groblje]

I don't get it. Everyone (including me) is always whining that arcane sucks, It's so retarded, fire is much more fun, and all that but now since fire is getting a buff there are topics about fire being plain and that arcane should stay superior ?

One spec is always going to be in front of the other for the duration of a raiding tier and I'm pretty sure blizzard does that on purpose so that you wouldn't stay one spec for the duration of an expansion because that would just be so stupid and boring that everyone would reroll all the time.

[rasfael]

I play arcane, having 6\7 HM progress and currently progressing at H Rag, and I must admit that you pretty overestimate Arcane difficulty. Yes its about avoiding shit and moving, but isnt it usual tactic versus bosses ? To avoid shit, to not stay in fire ? You cant change it - when you need to move - you move, only knowledge you need - is WHEN to move, so you wont waste CD's moving. It is good that fire is so easy for you - but for me it is not. You need to move - and in the SAME time you need to watch over insta pyro, cast scorch, refresh lb and in additional to this all fish for lucky comb. To make so many actions in the same time and moving constantly - is not really easy - at least for me.

Let's put it this way: not that arcane difficulty is based on moving or not. Problem is that arcane is the most unforgiving spec when it comes to moving and managing your cd's. Example 1: IF you have to move from point A to point B, you will have to do it in the most effective way there is, or stopping and refreshing your AB debuff. Example 2: If you start a burn phase and something happen and you have to move, or get knocked back, you just lost a huge part of your dps and you can't pick it up back.

@topic: Buffs to fire ARE welcome. As OP inferred, if fire is within an acceptable 2-3% output of arcane, it might be superior when the fight involves adds and a ton of movement. Arcane have a better burst, less RNG and will outperform the other specs when turreting.

I'm with those that think that fire needs a redesign. Not the mecanics are "unfun", but on lower tiers of gear, with a low crit rate, RNG plays a huge part on the gameplay and for me it's not acceptable that flawlessly played character can do 19-29k dps under the same conditions.

[AshTrai]

It's either a buff to fire or a nerf to arcane... which 1 do ya want Arcane Mages?
I was personally expecting another nerf to AB but oh well
I think these buffs will get scaled back as development continues cos this is a colossal buff to all the main dmg spells of fire. Will be interesting to test on ptr.

It does seem that the arcane mages here have forgotten that blizzard allow them to be OP single target nukers purely because the downside is they cannot do anything else.

[Purlina]

I don't get it when people say fire is hard. Yes you may have to hit a couple of additional buttons but overall it is not that hard.

The hardest part is lining up an optimal combustion, everything else is simple. Arcane is also very simple its all about managing mana / burn phases and having to move as little as possible.


Anyway I guess I better start collecting a set of gear for fire just in case...

[Deleted]

as a long time raider i must object.

after some pulls you know where you have to stay and if you are smart enough moving will not cost you too much even in arcane. btw arcane is only about two things - learn when and where to move, learn when to use your cooldowns - no big deal.

fire is superior while moving - yes, but its rotation is slightly more difficult even on single target and much more difficult (if you really want to min-max) on multi target fights than arcane, because arcane will be using his single target rotation and for huge amount of mobs they can swith it to AEx3(4)+1xAB spam..

impact spreading of dots and living bomb management (especially because of bug when spreading LB to more than 3 targets) is much harder but in some situations very rewarding. same applies for combustion usage where you have to be smart and careful.

generally there arent difficult specs in wow. only more or less easy. and to consider arcane easier than fire is simply a fail or you are trying to prove to yourself (and everyone around) that actually it takes a loads of skill to spam one button, every now and then few others and every now and then even move your ass. i have to warn you that this lie will NOT become true even if you repeat it often enough although goebbels would disagree :-) ("If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it.")

[LaplaceNoMa]

I don't get it when people say fire is hard. Yes you may have to hit a couple of additional buttons but overall it is not that hard.

The hardest part is lining up an optimal combustion, everything else is simple. Arcane is also very simple its all about managing mana / burn phases and having to move as little as possible.


Anyway I guess I better start collecting a set of gear for fire just in case...

Fire DPS abilities (single-target): Scorch, LB, FB, Pyro, Combustion, Flame Orb, MI
Arcane DPS abilities (single-target): AB, AM, Abarr, PoM, AP, Gem, Evocation, Mage ward (inc. absorbtion), Mana shield (inc. absorbtion), Flame Orb, MI

Note the difference
Even 3 extra buttons for aoe (BW, FS, Fire Blast) don't really change anything

[sornok]

I would totally remove "Ignite" from the game, and then I would balance "Cleave Damage" and "Single target Damage" with flat buffs.

[Deleted]

fire is still gonna be worthless even with the flat buffs to it. the only change is its gonna have a slightly higher range of RNG. instead of doing like 10-24k dps in a fight it might do 12-25k.

these numbers are pulled from where? i guess directly from your a*shole right?

only noobs and retards blame RNG for their bad dmg output with fire. crit rating is big enough that HS procs are reliable source of dmg, T12 set is also helpful. RNG was really an issue a long time ago when this patch came out.

but noobs are trying to defend their own failures by pointing at fire's supposedly unreliable RNG since then.

that is just a big and stupid lie - sorry.

if you are skilled enough - you can take advantage of all these RNG based skills fire has and in fact - it is quite fun. it is way more entertaining than be bored to death by arcane where your "rotation" is almost the same for every single cast from the beginning of the encounter to the end every single pull :-/ god bless RNG ;-)

[Deleted]

Fire DPS abilities (single-target): Scorch, LB, FB, Pyro, Combustion, Flame Orb, MI
Arcane DPS abilities (single-target): AB, AM, Abarr, PoM, AP, Gem, Evocation, Mage ward (inc. absorbtion), Mana shield (inc. absorbtion), Flame Orb, MI

Note the difference
Even 3 extra buttons for aoe (BW, FS, Fire Blast) don't really change anything

If your going to look at it like that, then you need to include the frequency of the use of said spells. Like 80% of your time + is spent pressing AB. Thats not the cast for Fire.

[LaplaceNoMa]

If your going to look at it like that, then you need to include the frequency of the use of said spells. Like 80% of your time + is spent pressing AB. Thats not the cast for Fire.

If you have to look at it this way, you need to be aware of the encounter's mechanics in order to use mage ward / mana shield when it's beneficial, as well as using evocation when there's no chance of being interrupted. You don't have to give a flying fuck about anything as fire. 'Keeping up LB' sure is hard eh? One dot with a well-known DPET. Try playing an affliction warlock if you think that 'keeping up LB is hard'.

[Imnick]

If your going to look at it like that, then you need to include the frequency of the use of said spells. Like 80% of your time + is spent pressing AB. Thats not the cast for Fire.

If you aren't casting fireball 80% of the time I'm not sure you've actually been playing a fire mage
It just does less damage than Arcane's filler spell, that's the only difference