Nefarian Paragon Video, Cataclysm Hall of Fame, MMO Report, Comics

Originally Posted by Notfur

Wrong.
It never worked with many abilities, for example Arcane Missiles, Festering Strike, but notably Deep Freeze or Starfall.
Deep Freeze crits for 140k -> 3M with Stolen Power.
Starfall -> 1.5M

Blizzard deliberately made those 2 OP abilities unaffected by Stolen Power, to prevent stacking of frost mages or boomkins.

Rip -> 4-5M damage... Blizzard failed...




Combustion is on 2 min cooldown. It requires huge DoTs in order to be effective. It doesn't work on amplified (via stolen power) Living Bomb, and it doesn't work on amplified Pyroblast DoT. It works only on Ignite produced by amplified Pyroblast crit.
Pyroblast has 50% to crit (with t11x4 and glyph of pyroblast).
If are lucky to crit, Pyro+Combustion will do total of 2.5M damage.
In practice, you are able to use Combustion on average 1.5 times during the fights. Rip you could use every time you were MCed.

Festering strike worked with the buff, it didn't add the buff to any dots it refreshed, but it hit a ton harder with siphon power. It did however, refresh a disease that was amplified, which is why mancheese was fairly close behind the druids, because everytime he was mind controlled he could IT, then roll that amped FF for longer with festering strike, wheras the ferals could only refresh their amped rip during the phase three MCs.

Originally Posted by Garnik

Because it is the European world first kill? What did you think?

Yeah and ? Nobody wants the EU nobody likes it.

Originally Posted by DragonFireKai

Festering strike worked with the buff, it didn't add the buff to any dots it refreshed, but it hit a ton harder with siphon power. It did however, refresh a disease that was amplified, which is why mancheese was fairly close behind the druids, because everytime he was mind controlled he could IT, then roll that amped FF for longer with festering strike, wheras the ferals could only refresh their amped rip during the phase three MCs.

It doesn't amplify the damage of Festering Strike now. Probably it was fixed also, I didn't know that.
But rolling works indeed.

Originally Posted by Notfur

It doesn't amplify the damage of Festering Strike now. Probably it was fixed also, I didn't know that.
But rolling works indeed.

Stupidest thing on that fight, Prot pally add tank in phase one gets MCed soon after the adds burn out. Siphon power while still carrying a ton of vengeance, popped inq, wings, and DP, and dropped a 2.8mil Shield of righteousness onto nef. Damn near pulled aggro by himself.

Originally Posted by VanishO2

You know that 25man bosses use skills that they don't on 10, right?

Ah, gotta love people who are still back in WotLK and think they know what they are talking about in regards to Cata raiding.

Theres no boss that does extra abilities in 25 man that it doesn't do in 10 also in Cata.

At all the above who corrected me: Thanks! I try to be correct when possible, so I'll use that information in the future.

Originally Posted by Notfur

It is broken mechanic. Blizzard disabled Deep Freeze and Starfall, but overlooked Rip.

Seems so, but a lot of the remaining spells are also just as broken as stuff like Starfall and Bane of Doom, right? (over 1.5 Million)

It seems like killing Nefarian in his current state using spells that do over 1.5 Million is still 'unintended' (This is obvious - Stolen Power is only 5% per stack on the PTR).

I don't blame Paragon for this, or Method (I'm sure some of their spells were still over 1.5 Million), and I really don't think anyone should, to be honest.

The blame is with Blizzard here - it's a flat out bad buff design, and so was their Sinestra buff (+100% haste when every class has radically different haste values = sadface).

Method should be on that list, not Paragon!!
In WOTLK was it ensidia who found the bug on LK first..

Blizzard. . . .

While I really hate world firsts and find them ridiculous (Its a game people, why is it so crucial we know who is the best. Modesty isn't the best policy anymore?) I love to read the "LOLUMAD" and "troll slayer" arguments that litter these threads. The term troll and hater has become so overused on MMO-Champ, that hardly anyone even knows what the words even mean anymore. As for the kill, whether or not this was an exploit, or just a "clever use of mechanics", I'll let that continue to be argued. This particular kill though was meant to kill the boss, not meant to be fair or flashy. Paragon only cared about killing the boss as fast as they could so they could be the best. They saw an opening (rip ticks faster and deals more damage) and took it by stacking Druids.

To me? This is an unethical kill, not an exploit, not a bug, but very unethical. The fight, as many fail to realize, was meant to be done with teamwork, using multitudes of classes, as with any fight, not taking a single class and downing it. You really think Paragon took 11 Druids by chance? They knew of this open door and decided to take the easy kill to world first. That's all there is to it.

This wasn't an exploit, but it was definitely an unethical kill. But hell, in the world of WoW, whatever gets your e-peen harder, I suppose.

Where are the Korean regional firsts?

Originally Posted by Notfur

It never worked with many abilities, for example Arcane Missiles, Festering Strike, but notably Deep Freeze and Starfall.
Deep Freeze crits for 140k -> 3M with Stolen Power.
Starfall -> 1.5M

Blizzard deliberately made those 2 OP abilities unaffected by Stolen Power, to prevent stacking of frost mages or boomkins.

Rip -> 4-5M damage... Blizzard failed...

It is broken mechanic. Blizzard disabled Deep Freeze and Starfall, but overlooked Rip.

...

If are lucky to crit, Pyro+Combustion will do total of 2.5M damage.
In practice, you are able to use Combustion on average 1.5 times during the fights. Rip you could use every time you were MCed.

I know that your disappointment is not directed at us, but I'm inclined to comment along the same lines I did to you elsewhere.

The OP big hits you are talking of weren't dots -- that was a consistent pattern in the abilities that were originally excluded from the mechnic. I am unsure why they designed it as they did, because Deep Freeze and *definitely* Starfall aren't anything special. The vast majority of dots work(ed) on the encounter, and that included the real big hitters. Notably fire mages, unholy dks, and moonkins all match or eclipse the potential of Deep Freeze with their dots -- or in the case of dks, rolling dots.

Just to be on the safe side, I went to bash a training dummy. Self-buffed, with abysmal crit, I was consistently pulling off 100-150k trinketed Sunfires. That equals up to 3.5M hits pretty much every MC. In reality (if I take a mage's word for it...), trinketed Pyro+Combustion also deals around 4M. Our top fire mage was averaging 40k dps throughout the whole fight on the rekill, which would have placed him #3 or #4 on the original epeen-meters. These dots might not be Rip, but they're not really that far off.

(Would actually have images of those, but apparently I can't post any!)

The fight is better off without feral stacking, but what they should have done is to take all dots out from the table. It doesn't make sense for *any* ability to hit upwards of 3.5M, when half the classes are stretching to even get to seven figures. It certainly is a broken mechanic -- and I think even more so than you're portraying, because the problem isn't limited to Rip. It was just the tip of the iceberg.

xaar, if you want to post images, just remove the http://www. and it should post.

Originally Posted by Simca

Seems so, but a lot of the remaining spells are also just as broken as stuff like Starfall and Bane of Doom, right? (over 1.5 Million)

Well, there is a small difference between 1.5M, and 4-5M :/
There is a difference between 40k dps (our top dps), and 70k dps (Paragon's top dps).

And TBH, I don't know of many spells that can do 1.5M now. Except Combustion, which is on 2min CD and requires a crit.
Arcane mage - 600k (Arcane Blast, 400k non crit, 800k crit)
Hunter - 1M (Explosive Shot).
Warlock - 1M (Immolate).
Boomkin - 1.2M (Moonfire)
xaar posted that Sunfire can pull off 3.5 - hm, maybe.
...

Originally Posted by Simca

It seems like killing Nefarian in his current state using spells that do over 1.5 Million is still 'unintended'.

I don't blame Paragon for this, or Method (I'm sure some of their spells were still over 1.5 Million), and I really don't think anyone should, to be honest.

LOL Yeah, certainly... Blizzard forgot that they left "Siphon Power" on Nefarian... Well, Blizzard left the buff for something. After few hotfixes we'll know what were their "intentions"

Originally Posted by Simca

The blame is with Blizzard here - it's a flat out bad buff design, and so was their Sinestra buff (+100% haste when every class has radically different haste values = sadface).

Well, it brings imbalance into DPS classes, because as you noticed, haste scales differently for everyone. But on Sinestra it didn't work bad at all. It works amazingly well on Sinestra.



By the way, I'm spamming this topic, but please don't read me wrong:
I'm telling that Blizzard failed and left broken mechanics on Nefarian, but I'm far from blaming Paragon.

Paragon didn't use bugs. (Well, right now you could call it a "bug", only because it was fixed... But when they were raiding it wasn't ^^)
Druids were doing OP damage -> use druids. That's simple. It's retarded to blame for that.

Blizzard made 2 mistakes:
1. Overlooked Rip (or even many other things with Stolen Power).
2. Fixed Rip, after Nefarian was killed with feral druids. (So other guilds had harder task, and this is pretty much the only reason why we were upset).

Originally Posted by A Challenger!

While I really hate world firsts and find them ridiculous (Its a game people, why is it so crucial we know who is the best. Modesty isn't the best policy anymore?) I love to read the "LOLUMAD" and "troll slayer" arguments that litter these threads. The term troll and hater has become so overused on MMO-Champ, that hardly anyone even knows what the words even mean anymore. As for the kill, whether or not this was an exploit, or just a "clever use of mechanics", I'll let that continue to be argued. This particular kill though was meant to kill the boss, not meant to be fair or flashy. Paragon only cared about killing the boss as fast as they could so they could be the best. They saw an opening (rip ticks faster and deals more damage) and took it by stacking Druids.

To me? This is an unethical kill, not an exploit, not a bug, but very unethical. The fight, as many fail to realize, was meant to be done with teamwork, using multitudes of classes, as with any fight, not taking a single class and downing it. You really think Paragon took 11 Druids by chance? They knew of this open door and decided to take the easy kill to world first. That's all there is to it.

This wasn't an exploit, but it was definitely an unethical kill. But hell, in the world of WoW, whatever gets your e-peen harder, I suppose.

Do you think Method just "Happened" to kill Atramedes in the doorway?
Do you think Premonition just "Happened" to devote an entire group to kiting adds in omnitron's room?
Do you think Ensidia just "Happened" to stack tanks on Halfus?

If you think 11 druids makes the fight an "easy kill", then you have no idea of the difficulty of the encounter. To get world firsts, you have to push things to the edge. Class stacking to take advantage of mechanics? Fine. Having lowbie warlocks SSing your whole raid? Go for it. Kiting adds blizzard intended for you to burn down? knock yourself out. Off tanking drakes you're supposed to burn down? Nice trick. Zerging through a fight with hard DPS? More power to you.

Pretty much, as long as you're not evade tricking mobs, or causing things to reset, then you're within the rules of the game. I consider people who stand on the statue for Lockmaw more worthy of a chastisement than paragon for stacking druids.

Originally Posted by DragonFireKai

Do you think Method just "Happened" to kill Atramedes in the doorway?
Do you think Premonition just "Happened" to devote an entire group to kiting adds in omnitron's room?
Do you think Ensidia just "Happened" to stack tanks on Halfus?

If you think 11 druids makes the fight an "easy kill", then you have no idea of the difficulty of the encounter. To get world firsts, you have to push things to the edge. Class stacking to take advantage of mechanics? Fine. Having lowbie warlocks SSing your whole raid? Go for it. Kiting adds blizzard intended for you to burn down? knock yourself out. Off tanking drakes you're supposed to burn down? Nice trick. Zerging through a fight with hard DPS? More power to you.

Pretty much, as long as you're not evade tricking mobs, or causing things to reset, then you're within the rules of the game. I consider people who stand on the statue for Lockmaw more worthy of a chastisement than paragon for stacking druids.

Seriously? Rage moar bro. I never chastised anyone, nor did I say this was wrong, or that the kill was exploited, or shouldn't be counted. Clearly you have no idea how the fight works either though, but DoTs of that magnitude really make a difficult encounter "trivial".

Once again, I'll repeat myself for illiterate people. To "ME", thats A Challenger!, this felt unethical. Never once did I say it wasn't a kill. I just felt it was unethical, just as I feel stacking on Lolmaw is unethical.

So please. Read before you decide to so fervently and zealously post without thinking.

Originally Posted by Notfur

LOL Yeah, certainly... Blizzard forgot that they left "Siphon Power" on Nefarian... Well, Blizzard left the buff for something. After few hotfixes we'll know what were their "intentions"

No kidding. Clearly neither this nor Sinestra should have gone live without a little more testing. I mean Dark Simulacrum, okay, that is kind of an underused spell, I can see that, but things like missing the Twilight Flames, and Stolen Power doing too much damage with some (many) spells would have been very obvious after only a few playtests. :<

Originally Posted by Notfur

Well, it brings imbalance into DPS classes, because as you noticed, haste scales differently for everyone. But on Sinestra it didn't work bad at all. It works amazingly well on Sinestra.

True. I think though to maybe decrease the class imbalance, they could do something like +25% Sta/Str/Agi/Int/Spi and +25% Haste/Crit/Mastery and make it multiplicative with current debuffs and buffs. Then if there is an issue where one class outperforms another, it needs to be addressed anyway because it will happen in a future tier!

Still, I suppose they have to mix things up, and seeing the same buff on every end boss to 'boost your raid up to the level you can kill them' would get old fast.

Originally Posted by Notfur

By the way, I'm spamming this topic, but please don't read me wrong:

I don't moderate this section, but I would never consider helpful and informative posts spam.

Originally Posted by Notfur

I'm telling that Blizzard failed and left broken mechanics on Nefarian, but I'm not blaming Paragon.

Paragon didn't use bugs. (Well, right now you could call it a "bug", only because it was fixed... But when they were raiding it wasn't ^^)
Druids were doing OP damage -> use druids. That's simple. It's retarded to blame for that.

Blizzard made 2 mistakes:
1. Overlooked Rip (or even many other things with Stolen Power).
2. Fixed Rip, after Nefarian was killed with feral druids. (So other guilds had harder task).

I agree completely.

Originally Posted by A Challenger!

Seriously? Rage moar bro. I never chastised anyone, nor did I say this was wrong, or that the kill was exploited, or shouldn't be counted. Clearly you have no idea how the fight works either though, but DoTs of that magnitude really make a difficult encounter "trivial".

Once again, I'll repeat myself for illiterate people. To "ME", thats A Challenger!, this felt unethical. Never once did I say it wasn't a kill. I just felt it was unethical, just as I feel stacking on Lolmaw is unethical.

So please. Read before you decide to so fervently and zealously post without thinking.

Where did I say you felt it was anything other than unethical or an "Easy kill"? It's your own concern if you feel it's unethical, I would simply say that if you single this out amongst all the other atypical raid comps that various guilds have used to get world firsts then you're being hypocritical.

But it being an easy kill is pretty much factually wrong. raid stacking of one sort or another is pretty much required, and no inferior DPS specs could be entertained. But it would have been doable with a combo of warlocks, mages, and DKs if you didn't want to bring a feral druid. Bringing that many feral druids meant they couldn't push any electrocutes in phase two, meaning that the phase three commenced with nef having over 60% of his health remaining. If they had brought a combo of mages and warlocks, they could have pushed a few crackles in phase two, and entered phase 3 with him at between 30% and 40% health, and had phase three be substantially shorter. But that would have required reworking the strat they were running, and probably a few more hours of wipes. But it was just as feasible.

Originally Posted by abpapollo

when ur paid and have literally all the time in the world to play then yea they are good. be like the rest of us who have real jobs and shit and see how they play and they would mearly be casual players. they wouldnt be that good imo.

ROFL what a jealous little turd

I'm not sure if any of you noticed the 800k rip crit from the druid's POV, and with 11 ferals all critting that they barely managed to beat the encounter. I am by no means a paragon fanboy/hater, and am not saying my guild would do any better because we wouldn't but still i feel they should have their world first revoked.

Originally Posted by DragonFireKai

Where did I say you felt it was anything other than unethical or an "Easy kill"? It's your own concern if you feel it's unethical, I would simply say that if you single this out amongst all the other atypical raid comps that various guilds have used to get world firsts then you're being hypocritical.

But it being an easy kill is pretty much factually wrong. raid stacking of one sort or another is pretty much required, and no inferior DPS specs could be entertained. But it would have been doable with a combo of warlocks, mages, and DKs if you didn't want to bring a feral druid. Bringing that many feral druids meant they couldn't push any electrocutes in phase two, meaning that the phase three commenced with nef having over 60% of his health remaining. If they had brought a combo of mages and warlocks, they could have pushed a few crackles in phase two, and entered phase 3 with him at between 30% and 40% health, and had phase three be substantially shorter. But that would have required reworking the strat they were running, and probably a few more hours of wipes. But it was just as feasible.

Well in that case I'm sorry, I am not looking at this any differently from other "clever uses of mechanics", its all the same to me, a trick of the trade used to win the "race" quicker.

While I agree with you that raid stacking is required now, especially in Cata (Gods only know why Blizzard thought these raid stack fights were smart, it only ostracizes people more), I still feel that 11 Druids is overkill, and was used to gain an edge that teetered on the fragile and often over abused precipice of ethics.

EDIT: I still think this is a hard encounter, even on normal mode, but I still stand by my stance that 11 Druids was purposely used to gain an unethical, tactful edge on a hard fight, simply to claim victory in a "race" against other guilds. To me, if this silly "race" never existed, we'd probably see a lot less of these kills in general.

oh look, a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCjUYMSNq5Y