Update: Added a new response to some feedback.

Patch 5.4.2 PTR - Build 17585

Warlords of Draenor - Flying Delayed Until First Major Patch
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
There's a lot of discussion about flying/not-flying and I'd like to try to sum things up and maybe realign the discussion a bit. Some of the other threads are near-cap, some have really gone down tangents, so I'm just picking this one to throw a reply into. Apologies to the other threads.

We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100, and have flying become available again in the first major patch for Warlords of Draenor. No flying while leveling has been the case during Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, and Mists of Pandaria. We allowed flying during Cataclysm because as those zones were mixed-in with the 1-60 world it just would have been really jarring to dismount you as you fly into Hyjal, etc. but we would have disallowed it for Catalcysm zones as well if there was a reasonable solution there.

Flying trivializes combat. A lot of people like to say we're trying to force world PvP, or that we just really want people to look at the pretty trees we made, but those really aren't the reasons that drive this same decision we've made every expansion. Flying allows you to escape or enter combat at-will. There's a reason why flying isn't allowed in dungeons and raids, or battlegrounds and arenas, and that's because it would trivialize the core mechanic of the game in those areas - combat. For much the same reason it trivializes how content is approached in the outdoor world based on the simple fact that you can lift off and set down wherever you like.

So that's the main reason. But sure there are a lot of other problems it can cause for content design such as zones having to get a lot bigger because flying mounts can travel so quickly (and thus making ground travel in them take much longer), it reduces the impact of elevation within zones, it completely removes the ability for us to pace or present content in any structured way, and in general removes our ability to determine how and when players approach a situation, see a vista or location, or charge into/out-of a combat situation. It just greatly reduces any gameplay we want to create by allowing infinite choice in how content is approached to best suit a player's intention to (usually) avoid that content.

I totally sympathize with people's desire to do that, they want to be efficient and have it be their choice, but we have to balance our intent to create a game against creating a sandbox where anything goes. There's a happy medium there somewhere, but flying mounts in most cases just do too much to undermine too many of our core intentions with the game world, the basis of the game: combat, or guiding players through a game experience, and for those reasons we have continually chosen (when we could) to disallow flying mounts in the 'current' outdoor content. In the past that's meant only while leveling, but in our experiences with the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle we feel like we can extend that for a bit longer in the new content, and have it be kind of a big deal again once you're able to earn flying in the first big content patch, and in the meantime putting focus on flight paths as well as having some more interesting travel options for players to use.

Update: So a couple things I wanted to bring up in addition to what I posted earlier. The first was that we're of course refining our questing experience, you may have heard a bit about it from BlizzCon, and that expands to max level content as well. In Mists of Pandaria there was quite a bit of outdoor content at max level, but it was almost entirely in the form of dailies. From BlizzCon we shared we're looking to provide something quite a bit more story driven like the 5.1 Operation Shieldwall/Dominance Offensive with some of the exploration lessons we learned from the Timeless Isle, and that extends to the max level experience as well. We want the transition at max level not to be questing and story to a harsh "now you do dailies", but something that's more natural and feels a lot like the leveling experience just at max level for better reward. And so that goes back to all of the reasons I gave before about how flight interrupts some of the core mechanics we think present the best leveling and questing experience, and I thought it'd be good to point out that it'll also play a big role at max level due to our questing refinements.

The second thing is we really like when flying feels like a reward and something you've earned for each new expansion or area. It's such a powerful ability and we look back at BC (at least for epic riding) or Wrath and those were really big keystone achievements for us as players (mainly because they had some pretty huge gold costs on them...). Regardless of the unlock method though it was one of the bigger moments when you unlocked flying, took to the skies, and were able to see the world from an entirely different vantage because for most of us it wasn't easily attainable. Our plan has been to recapture some of that but make it a bit cooler, and while we don't have specifics just yet, it'll be something more involved than just paying gold; something that further emphasizes how powerful flight is. Unlocking it won't just be level 100 on the day 6.1 comes out with some gold, but something you'll be working toward over the course of the initial expansion release, and 6.1 will introduce the final steps to complete it. Think of something like a mini Legendary cloak quest. It's such a enormous power to be able to fly we really want it to be more of a key moment when you unlock it, and something that feels like an accomplishment more than just shelling out some gold like we've had in the past.

Anyway, I felt like those two things were worth spelling out.

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This article was originally published in forum thread: Warlords of Draenor - Flying Delayed Until First Major Patch, Hearthstone Beta Keys started by chaud View original post
Comments 1056 Comments
  1. Gamespud's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Shudder View Post
    What he meant to say was when 90 hits blizzard puts a gun to your head and tells you you're not allowed to use ground mounts anymore, you have to fly now. That really pissed him off, now the gun is pointed at those who wanted to fly.
    Blizzard doesn't force anything on you. You are ALLOWED to use a flying mount. You could just as easily mount up on a ground mount and experience the zone the way you please. So why hold a gun to my head and tell me Im not allowed to use flying mounts anymore?
  1. jinreeko's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Abstieg View Post
    Is it so hard to allow it at max level, and for alts? Wrath did it and it was just fine.
    just to nitpick a little, wrath offered flying at 77 because you NEEDED to use it as Icecrown was constructed. Also, the heirloom flying license for alts was patched in later, not at launch
  1. Abstieg's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    It can still be withheld until maximum level; and as newer content patches come out and it is no longer necessary to restrict flying in wherever; whichever new zone takes its place can have flying restricted...

    In this way they can satisfy their own design gratification (people seeing the game the way they want it seen) and also the people for whom flying around is an important part of their gameplay. Are you genuinely refusing to see the reasons why they would want to restric flying at all; or do you just feel they aren't as relevant compared to yours (or others) desire to be able to fly the moment they arrive in Draenor, or the moment they hit level 100?
    There's no reason to limit it once you're at 100, unless they are going to progressively limit flying from every current level content, at which point I'd say they are being foolish.
  1. EmbersRise's Avatar
    Imo there should never be flying allowed. It ruins world PvP and in general makes things too easy.
  1. Gamespud's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by agamedes View Post
    Why are people throwing a hissyfit here? what's different? e.g. in WotLK, you could not use your flying mount while flying either, nut until you reached level 77 at least - How is this new? I think every expansion beside Cataclysm did similar stuff. Do you not understand that, if, say, you level up to 100 in a single week, that'll be the only week when you won't be able to fly on that character in Draenor? Nobody's taking your mounts and even in Draenor, as soon as you hit 100, you'll get their use again without the need to wait for a patch, be it a major or a minor one

    So, in the end, in my humble opinion, if this is a dealbreaker for you - you weren't serious to begin with and tend to whine for the sake of whining

    "We intend to disallow flying while leveling from 90 to 100" - How is this difficult to read? no flying while leveling, nothing said about endgame, you get your shiny dragon back at 100
    Read it again the point of this is that they are taking it away EVEN FOR MAX LEVEL until patch 6.1 They aren't just removing it from leveling as always they are removing it entirely for a few months.
  1. AeneasBK's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Abstieg View Post
    There's no reason to limit it once you're at 100, unless they are going to progressively limit flying from every current level content, at which point I'd say they are being foolish.
    Because the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isles were failures? Content-wise?
  1. Abstieg's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Because the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isles were failures? Content-wise?
    I'm not particularly fond of them, no.
  1. Shudder's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinxz View Post
    I hope you guys like paying 500g/stack of ore/herbs LOL!
    Good point.
  1. Blade and Soul's Avatar
    I'm glad they are restricting flying. It will be interesting to see how fast they release 6.1. I enjoyed the exploration in Classic/Vanilla, and the introduction of flying mounts kind of eliminated that.

    However, I do sympathize with those that will be leveling multiple alts. I hope they allow us to purchase/learn an account wide flying (ability?) once 6.1 hits or 6.2 which requires you to have at least a maximum leveled character.
  1. Gamespud's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by EmbersRise View Post
    Imo there should never be flying allowed. It ruins world PvP and in general makes things too easy.
    World PvP died long before flying. Even blizz has admitted World PvP like southshore vs tarren mill only existed because they had no pvp content. They don't even believe they can truly return world PvP because theres more to it than flying.
  1. Kaleredar's Avatar
    Hopefully this will put to rest the "flying mounts are the sux" crowd.

    Even if their skewed take on how they think other people need to enjoy the game still remains, the ACTUAL majority of WoW players will have to suffer something they never asked for. We'll see what they think... Whether they like to notion of doing things slower and more frustratingly, or whether they think disallowing the use of their hard-earned mounts for literally no good reason is bullshit.

    I'm going with the latter.
  1. Constellation's Avatar
    All the people over at the official forum that will unsub just because of this, hahaha, laughing my ass off here.

    Pathetic how people prioritize things.

    I for one welcome this! I've hated how dumb down exploration and travelling have become with flying.
  1. Marema's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Katharine View Post
    Instead of pointlessly limiting flying they should design zones around flying but they are too narrowminded/lazy to do so.
    Yeah because the people who whine about no flying and need to use a ground mount or flight paths aren't too narrowminded/lazy to do so.
  1. AeneasBK's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Abstieg View Post
    I'm not particularly fond of them, no.
    Fair enough; I've heard it referred to as "Aimless Isle" before. But do you feel they were generally negatively received? My experiences suggest no; the combination of random events; stuff to grind; rare mobs and catch-up mechanisms - including the mix-up of that Censor; I think for the size of the Isle, TI provided a lot of hours of gameplay. Certainly people aren't complaining as much about not having anything to do.

    I would imagine flying being restricted in future "similar-style" zones being a permanent feature. And I think it makes the experience more fun; I don't demand that you agree.
  1. Wyrllish's Avatar
    The only people who complain about not getting flying right away are noobs.
  1. Captiosus's Avatar
    The current system (no flying until max cap and no BOAs allowing alts to leap forward into flying early) is perfect. The argument that flying "trivializes" the world content is ridiculous because world mobs are trivialized at level 100 once you start getting heroic dungeon gear. Being able to mount up and "avoid" combat is still going to be possible with a ground mount. Additionally, the danger element can be addressed through other means (see: old Ogri'la and Skettis dailies, being targeted by enemy faction flying guards) instead of just completely shutting off a 6 year old mechanic.

    As I said on the WoW forums: Having worked in software development, this concept of removing a 6 year old software design that customers have paid REAL MONEY to participate in is utterly foolish. Adding more hazards or changing the process up to make it more in line with their world design goals would be fine. Blocking it outright is just lazy ass design.
  1. Gamespud's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Valock View Post
    All the people over at the official forum that will unsub just because of this, hahaha, laughing my ass off here.

    Pathetic how people prioritize things.

    I for one welcome this! I've hated how dumb down exploration and travelling have become with flying.
    I agree the people saying they are unsubbing over this are hilarious but in all honesty this wont fix exploration at all. You can still explore on your ground mount no one is restricting you in any kind of way whatsoever by having a completely optional feature known as a flying mount.
  1. Shudder's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    No flying while leveling? I can deal. I get that they want to be able to have structured content and being able to choose your battles defeats some of that a bit too easily. Fine. They want to tell us a story while we get to level cap. Whatever.

    No flying at max level however? No fucking way. What good reason is there? If I'm max, I no longer care about leveling content. I care about efficiency. Running across an entire zone and being constantly dazed is not fun. It's frustrating. Why do I want to fight a pack of level 95 mobs if I'm at level 100? What good reason is there to do so? The only reason I would fight them is when I'm forced to by a silly dismount mechanic. So why shouldn't I be allowed to fly over them?

    Do you know what this is going to cause?

    People simply wont leave the city. It's not like we have to fly to dungeon entrances anyway.

    Flight paths are not fun, they take too long just sitting there with no ability to get off quickly if you change your mind or see something (say, a rare spawn). If you select a flight path that takes 10 minutes to complete, you have committed to that 10 minutes and cannot get off the taxi on a whim. It's a huge time-waste. Especially since FPs rarely go in a straight line, instead looping around the entire fucking map when you just want to get from A to B.

    "But it kills immersion!" you cry. I don't play WoW to feel immersed; it has too many pop culture references and too much humour for me to ever give a shit about being immersed. I play for the endgame, and throwing up another artificial time-sink to that is frankly ridiculous.

    What next, all rep factions require mob grinding like Emperor Shaohao? It wasn't "immersive" enough getting rep through tokens or instances.
    We had this EXACT same argument back when they removed the portals. Remember those days? The Blizz apologists ran in saying good! Now people will go out and explore the world! What happened? It became world of queuecraft where everyone just sat there and refused to go anywhere unless summoned. One of the reasons this pissed me off, my garrison was going to be placed in shadowmoon, cause I like the idea of perpetual night. I'm horde. There is NO way I'm using a ground mount to go across the map every day to go to my garrison. Forcing people to either stay in cities or use flight paths is bad design. I'd explore more if I had a mount, not a flight path where I'm tabbed out.
  1. AeneasBK's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Captiosus View Post
    The current system (no flying until max cap and no BOAs allowing alts to leap forward into flying early) is perfect. The argument that flying "trivializes" the world content is ridiculous because world mobs are trivialized at level 100 once you start getting heroic dungeon gear. Being able to mount up and "avoid" combat is still going to be possible with a ground mount. Additionally, the danger element can be addressed through other means (see: old Ogri'la and Skettis dailies, being targeted by enemy faction flying guards) instead of just completely shutting off a 6 year old mechanic.

    As I said on the WoW forums: Having worked in software development, this concept of removing a 6 year old software design that customers have paid REAL MONEY to participate in is utterly foolish. Adding more hazards or changing the process up to make it more in line with their world design goals would be fine. Blocking it outright is just lazy ass design.
    No one paid real money for the flying skill. Would you feel less disappointed if they allowed you to use pet store mounts as ground mounts only until it becomes unlocked?
  1. Abstieg's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    Fair enough; I've heard it referred to as "Aimless Isle" before. But do you feel they were generally negatively received? My experiences suggest no; the combination of random events; stuff to grind; rare mobs and catch-up mechanisms - including the mix-up of that Censor; I think for the size of the Isle, TI provided a lot of hours of gameplay. Certainly people aren't complaining as much about not having anything to do.

    I would imagine flying being restricted in future "similar-style" zones being a permanent feature. And I think it makes the experience more fun; I don't demand that you agree.
    For Timeless Isle, I think no flying adds a certain charm to it, though Isle of Thunder it just annoys me.

    But to have the entire continent be no flying for a while, plus have every current activity be no flying, completely marginalizes flying mounts, which I think do add something to the game.

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