Shadowlands Beta - How to Swap Covenants

Just put covenant abilities as level 60 talent row, and make covenants purely cosmetic.

Pull the ripcord before it is too late when everyone knows it will be a 100% disaster.

Originally Posted by Kaver

We are no dicks about it.

That's not what I meant, sorry! What I mean is if we see a lot of people being rejected from groups just because they picked Night Fae (for example), Blizzard will have to step in.

Originally Posted by Kaver

Yes, so I have already made this kind of decision once. Actually twice if you also count spec choice. So why do I have to do it again[?]

Spec choice isn't semi-permanent; you can change specs at will. A more apt system would be professions (of old); changing them meant relearning all of the recipes again from scratch. There's a book or something in the game now which relearns all your old recipes, though, so that kind of permanence has been partially removed.

I think the permanence of Covenants is an experiment, similar to the permanence of Legion's artifact weapons. Best thing to do is partake in the experiment and feed back on the official forums any results.

Originally Posted by JavelinJoe

I dont believe there are many people who genuinely think this is a good system, maybe like 1 in 100 people. I dont want to be anything other than necrolord but if its trash im going to be completely torn and unhappy whichever way I choose. How is that good game design[?]

I think you're seriously underestimating how many people dislike this system. I'm looking forward to it, as is much of my community.

I also think you're seriously overestimating how unbalanced these are going to be, seeing as the outspoken community response to this warrants increased focus on balance.

Originally Posted by Firebert

Best thing to do is partake in the experiment and feed back on the official forums any results.

It's not the best thing if Blizzard force my DK to join a group of night fae fairies to get the best performance.

Originally Posted by Kaver

It's not the best thing if Blizzard force my DK to join a group of night fae fairies to get the best performance.

Force you how? You still have the choice.

Originally Posted by JavelinJoe

Played WoW long enough to know the vast majority of people dont want systems like this, and reading forums with hundreds of pages of people saying they arent happy is enough for me to see that.

The same "vast majority" complain about LFR being in the game; it ain't going anywhere. Note that I said "outspoken community"; I don't believe that this is the majority.

Originally Posted by JavelinJoe

I flat out do not want to play any other covenant than Necrolord [...] [b]ut I am extremely focused on Mythic/M+ and if necro isnt BIS for either one of those 2 im gonna be really tilted.

So you still have a choice; I'll make it quite clear:
*Pick Necrolord because it's thematically good for your character (in your opinion)
*Pick whatever covenant is "BiS" (if there is even such a thing") because you feel like only one covenant is viable in your chosen content.

If Blizzard were forcing you, your covenant would be chosen for you and may not even be the "BiS" one you wanted. That's significantly worse than the choice above.

Originally Posted by Firebert

Force you how? You still have the choice.

Ion put a gun to my head yesterday. He said join the flimpsy fairies with your Death Knight. I said no. He said I would do 0 damage then. I still said no. But in the end he forced me. I had no choice. True story.

Originally Posted by Radazar

look it like the US military, you have 4 branches of service that work together but they have different jobs the perform same wit the covenants. leaving you covenant for another would be like leaving the army for the navy.

Something that wouldn't have you branded a traitor requiring proving your dedication to the superiority of one branch over another.

Originally Posted by JavelinJoe

And I think you're seriously underestimating the lengths the playerbase will go for small benefits, as proven unequivocally by racials. I assume you meant overestimated how many people dislike this sytem. Well sorry, I flat out disagree. Played WoW long enough to know the vast majority of people dont want systems like this, and reading forums with hundreds of pages of people saying they arent happy is enough for me to see that.

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You're living in a completely different world. If you dont understand why people feel forced its clear you dont understand the issue because as and I quote preach roughly here "You insist its fine because it dosent bother/affect you"

Again, if you literally cant see how the vast majority of players feel forced into making a decision that either way ends in one big positive and one or more big negatives, you dont understand.

Ill make it quite clear.

I flat out do not want to play any other covenant than Necrolord, and fyi I have 0 idea what any of the covenants do for death knights. I know the necrolords are very close to DK in theme and thats the only one I want to play as a DK, period. But I am extremely focused on Mythic/M+ and if necro isnt BIS for either one of those 2 im gonna be really tilted.

So to me it sounds like you’re saying I want the theme and cosmetic perks and I want any perks for another choice I make which is M+?

If so, sounds like you want your cake and to eat it too?
Sorry but I think you’ll find a lot of us are happy with this restriction as minor as it is. The masses are actually jack of seeing the game designed to keep the M+ elite and Mythic raiders happy, and want a more rounded and even game.

If you want the big deeps for your M+ then make the choice, if you want the skins and cosmetics and theme go for that, wanna swap back and forth, pay the price...

If you want to change your covenants (abilities) without any downsides you are asking them to add another talent row with 4 options. Then all it takes is going icy veins to let it tell you which one (not) to chose for dungeons/raids/open world. "Ability X is the best overall choice in most situations" > Never gonna change that talent row again. Awesome concept.

Originally Posted by keymil

It's a video game, not a life-long decision of choosing a bank for a huge loan.

Changing bank for your loan is actually easier and faster than changing covenant...

Originally Posted by JavelinJoe

a significant portion of the playerbase at this stage in its life care about being competitive, whether thats m+, mythic raids, heroic raids, pvp. If you think its some outspoken minority you're living in a different world. You are absolutely entitled to believe that, but I would seriously suggest you to look at what WoW is as a game at this stage. Most people dont just play it for the story. In fact, I would absolutely argue people play it more for the end game content and being somewhat competitive/powerful than pure story.

Unfortunately everything above is speculation and not fact.

Originally Posted by JavelinJoe

So you've literally proven my point?

No, I just made it clear that both options are subjective, and potentially intersect, but doesn't matter if they don't.

Originally Posted by JavelinJoe

What you mean to say is "If Blizzard were even more stubborn/misguided, your covenant would be chosen for you and may not even be the "BiS" one you wanted. That's significantly worse than the choice above."

Yes, it's an absurdism, which is the same as the argument you posed.

Originally Posted by Boddhi

If you want to change your covenants (abilities) without any downsides you are asking them to add another talent row with 4 options. Then all it takes is going icy veins to let it tell you which one (not) to chose for dungeons/raids/open world. "Ability X is the best overall choice in most situations" > Never gonna change that talent row again. Awesome concept.

This guy gets it. In any case they should be relatively well balanced such that they are viable in all content and don't fuel covenantism.

Originally Posted by JavelinJoe

Assuming they are not balanced by the time SL hits, do you think there is a problem? Secondly, do you not think it would be better if your cosmetic choice and ability choice were seperate? Do you think it would be better if you could only change your talent row choices once every 2 weeks?

Firstly, of course, but that's a balancing problem, not a deep-seated systems problem.

Secondly, no, as it doesn't make any sense for a player clearly in the Necrolord faction to Summon Steward, as it is misleading.

Lastly, no, as another user has pointed out, all you need to do is go look at Icy Veins to tell you what to pick and subsequently ignore the row, and additionally none of the other talents (not even PvP) have two-week cooldowns and as such will add confusion.