Hi, it looks like you are new here. Here is some stuff you might want to read before pretending to be an expert on things
http://theincbear.com/living-seed-replacement/
Hi, it looks like you are new here. Here is some stuff you might want to read before pretending to be an expert on things
http://theincbear.com/living-seed-replacement/
Did you know you can disagree with people without being a jerk about it? I was not "pretending to be an expert". I just said my opinion. Geesh. Merry Christmas to you too.
I don't like Living Seed's unreliability and the tiny amount it heals for. I'd rather take a realiable buff to one of our most powerful spells, and an ohshit button. So I spec BoTG and NS instead. Pure numbers are not the be-all and end-all for healing. I'm sorry that my gentle disagreement offended your delicate sensibilities, but I genuinely was just trying to help by making suggestions.
Edit: Err, the math you use relies on having your spec, which is linked... and then you are dual-feral specced? O_o It's not very convincing, though your other work is quite impressive. Other blogs are saying it depends on your healing style. If you are doing 10s or 5s and rely more in direct heals, then LS is much more likely to provide a healing boost. If you heal more with hots and do 25 mans (which I do), then the value of LS drops. Those blogs also show the raw numbers of their work, which is a bit more convincing. You are correct that I was oversimplifying, but it is by no means an objective call that everyone should follow.
Last edited by Zarah; 2011-12-26 at 02:03 PM.
Hey guys,
I just read the descussion about dropping t12 4p a page before and now I have a lame question.
Does it make sense to switch from mostly t12 normal to t13 normal? Higher itemlvl= int + secondary stats, regardless set boni?
Our Tank is full t13 now and next raid our tokens go to other raidmembers, and I thought I should ask someone with knowledge if it is worth it, or to step aside for Dmg dealers.
We now have 1 HM down, probably going to attempt the next Heroic boss today, and from what I've heard of they are a lot mor heal intensive then normal mode or Morochok. I did not have any mana issues during any fight...do I really need the 2p t13 bonus?
Thanks in advance
PS: Anyone interested my Armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte.../Leokan/simple (trying to be not Moonkin specced)
Are you healing 10 man or 25man? Living seed is really good for 10man. considering the other alternatives ofc. I also skip nature's bounty since i only use regrowth during omen procs when in ToL, or when i want to activate nature's grace. And NS is a must in this case, just have HT glyphed
Your logic is flawed. Yes a huge chunk of your healing comes from rejuv. but BotG increases that by ~1% per point. 2 points is about 2%. living seed does about what, 3,5% of my total healing? Thats a lot better then BotG. Now, in 25 it would be different, but since I do 10m and I need to keep healing the tank, I cast lots of HT/nourish and those crits are awesomeConsidering that a huge chunk of our healing is Rejuv, and that Living Seed is conditional (as in only crits proc), BoTG beats it pretty easily. Even if you're doing a lot of tank healing, it's nearly worthless.![]()
Last edited by mmocd0e843edf6; 2011-12-26 at 02:18 PM.
I don't have another trinketDS REFUSE to drop and I was using the alchy one until I got enough haste. There's an eye in my bank, but I'd rather have the passive crit/ mastery with a bonus to innervate than a useless proc. I really, really, REALLY want to get a frigging DS trinket if they'd drop, rargha.sdsa,.
As for my haste, I just got my weapon and I've gotta start all over with gems/ reforging. Just haven't done it, been a bit busy with TOR since I got it >.>
And I've never relied on DI. Got it for a while when we had 1 SP and 1 boomie with three locks, but I'd always lose it on Alys for sure and other fights depending on our mages whims, so didn't bother to reforge around it. It's not something *I* reforge around, but others have, and Parkwaydrive saying it's useless always was just silly.
As for LS vs. BoTG, it's situational, as others have said. I like it because a lot of things proc it when you regrowth in tree as well as when I have to tank heal. BoTG just doesn't do enough for me, though I don't particularly like LS either. If I had my choice, I'd take NEITHER of 'em, but you have to take one to advance![]()
The calculator completely takes into account your healing style, by using values from your log.
Many of the restoration blogs and resource link to my calculator - check out Lissana's guide and Myrrar's guide.
The source for the calculation can be seen from the web source.
It's pretty clear, even if your only source of Living Seed comes from Swiftmending every 15 seconds, it will do more healing than BotG talent. BotG is THAT terrible and overrated a talent.
Point out any blog that says otherwise - you can be pretty sure the author doesn't know about BotG additive stacking.
The calculator is correct. It also agrees with all the other top theorycrafters. It DOES depend on how you heal, that's why you input all your numbers and it calculates how much each will actually benefit you. Take logs of all the fights you do, add them all in, use which is top most of the time. Which, in 10s and 25s, if you are healing correctly, will almost always be LS > BotG
For 10s and 25s if you keep LB up as much as possible, use ToL correctly so you get CC a normally amount of times, you use Rg vs HT correctly, along with all the other basics, it's rare this tier for it to be anything but NB > LS > BotG
If you test for yourself and they are drastically different on all fights, you may want to take a look on how you heal because you are probably doing something wrong.
NB is a no brainer. LS vs BotG is normally the only thing debatable, but outside of a very few instances where you shouldn't be specing yourself after anyway, botg is pretty terrible.
Thanks very much for taking the time to explain all that nicely and for the patience with my ignorance of the complicated mechanics of BotG etc.Makes sense, though it seems like BotG is not working right, because it seems to be pretty useless given how it stacks. Definitely changing my spec. I forget who asked before, but I almost exclusively raid heal 25s. But even then it seems LS EASILY beats out BotG, even with just 1 point. Gonna spec for it.
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Although LS seems to show better numbers on paper, it's not actually better than BotG. It's one of those moments when the choice should be dictated by the common sense and not by raw numbers. Let me explain.
Fights virtually consist of low/medium damage phases, where only tanks get constant DPS and the most of the raid damage is avoidable, and short but heavy read-wide AOE damage phases. Now ask yourself two questions:
1. Do you really care how many %s LS gives you when your raid takes like 10-15k DPS? I definitely don't.
2. Do you direct-heal through heavy raid-wide damage? I hope not (free RG's in ToL should be the only exception).
When sh*t is about to happen we either pop CDs or spam rejuvs. And that's where ANY +heal bonus for rejuv matters, while LS is almost worthless. So, although I agree totally that BotG is weaker in theory, it's still more desirable in an actual fight.
both talents are crap. perseverance is king because druids are the weakest healers from all classes and dead healer does 0 healing
While I agreed initially, where BotG fails is the stacking. It really is an incredibly TINY increase for rejuv, and even though LS approaches healing for equally as tiny an amount, it has a relatively low overheal (this is considering a 25 man high raid damage scenario). We should be doing some direct healing during high raid damage, some regrowths on CC procs and nourishes to keep harmony up and refresh tanks. Even if you do the bare minimum of direct healing, LS will still easily creep ahead of BotG. In theory, I agree, but BotG is really just THAT bad. It's a broken talent, IMO, and if they fix it it'll easily be better. But because it doesn't even stack properly the increase in overall healing tends to hover at 0.3% when compared with LS. Lots of people have numbers of 1.5%+ for LS. Ive only played for a year or so, so my LS tends to be much lower, but still well over twice the healing of BotG with low overheal. Even if you don't like following raw numbers (and I don't), it's hard to disregard.
Objective data vs Subjective opinions, we'll see which one people will believe in.
So, even though when testing your actual numbers from a fight LS leads to more effective healing than BotG, BotG is better?
No. LS leads to more healing because it leads to more healing. The amount of extra healing RJ gets from BotG in any phase does not compete with the healing LS gives throughout a full fight.
What you are saying makes absolutely no sense. 10k effective healing or 5k effective healing? Those aren't actual number, but you get the point. BotG does so little additional healing because it stacks additively it's worthless.
I raid 25s, I blanket RJ a lot of the time. I only use RG in emergencies and on CC. I hardly ever HT. I never nourish besides downtimes. LS equals to more healing than BotG.
Just because you 'feel like it would give more healing' doesn't mean it does. BotG is broken, end of story. If you read the OP, as it says,
You assume because we RJ a lot now the talent is better. You can math out your own healing and see that'a not the case. This isn't theory, this is taking logs and seeing fact.BotG stacks additively. Meaning with two points you only get right over 2% instead of 4. There is really no reason to take 2/2 botg and only really should take 1/2 if you are dropping massive amounts of regen points and have a ton to spare.
Per Dendrek: Rejuvenation is affected by several additive effects, meaning that although BotG should increase healing by 2% per point, it actually increases healing by MUCH LESS than 2%. In fact, it's worth something close to 1% increase per point. That's a 1% increase to Rejuv's healing, not a 1% increase to overall healing. It's very likely close to a .5% increase per point to overall healing. That amount is so small it almost makes those wasted talent points.
Basically this: LS kinda sucks, especially for 3 points, but BotG sucks even more.
Maybe one day they'll finally make LS into an actual absorb...
The value of living seed isn't the hps you get but the potential to save a players life when they need fast healing immediately. With NB and living seed, regrowth is actually a very potent flash heal. Trying to analyze the spell in terms of % healing done on WoL is like trying to assess the value of NS based on how much throughput it does on an average fight.
I don't understand the debate here between BotG and LS...
It takes thirty seconds to open up your parses, punch a few numbers into a calculator, and see the clear and objective result. BotG is terrible, LS is less terrible.
It's a complete and utter no-brainer.
Erm. Living Seed may be less shit than BotG, but it's still shit and definitely not better than Furor or Moonglow.
With most restos losing their 2T12 bonus, the spec I would recommend is http://www.wowhead.com/talent#0hbhZMZMfzudMruouo
If you spec for throughput and end the fight with mana to spare, your raid is simply not taking enough damage to challenge you, and you would most probably have beaten the fight anyway if you had specced for sustainability instead.
If you spec for sustainability and ended the fight with zero mana, you would probably have wiped if you had specced for throughput instead.
You are treading in a dangerous path assuming that your spec is the definitive spec, that anyone with a different opinion are all "relegated to the lol-pile". All it takes is a few counter-examples to show that your 'definitive spec' may not be as definitive as you think it is. I picked the first three resto druids that I can find from guilds that have killed H Madness of Deathwing, let's check out how they are specced:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...talent/primary
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...talent/primary
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lent/secondary
Hmm... all three of them have 3 in Moonglow and 2 in Furor.
I then checked out your armory and WoL parses. So you're 7/8 10N DS, then I see that your raid group is not only 3-healing every single fight, but you are all ilevel ~390, outgearing Normal DS! Well, of course in this case YOU will not have mana issues.
You screwed up royally by taking your own experiences healing content that you outgear with more healers than is really required, and assume that everyone, up to and including those doing Heroic Madness will experience the exact same thing.
BTW, good luck with Normal Madness. It's a 15 minute fight.
Last edited by tangedyn; 2011-12-31 at 09:23 PM.