Originally Posted by
Archidamos
Danis, as I said on my edit, my post towards your thoughts was formulated having in mind that you re a 25 man raider (not 10) that finds everything in current model perfectly normal.
Since you re a 10 man raider, in a competive guild, I can understand how you can’t see the flows of the current system, that in the bottom line is tailored around your needs.
More specifically towards your thoughts about pugs, only a note that in order to get credit for a kill in third party progression sites, you need 5 people doing the same kill, first time (there is record for time and date ONLY for your first kill in your API). Thus to have a fully pugged run being credited to a guild, is extremely unlikely. A kill with the group being consisted only from guild members(that never killed the boss again) plus 1-3 randoms, is hardly considered a pug.
About ignoring and then bashing the math, I didn’t express myself well. Thus your confusion is reasonable.
I should have said “not only you didn’t ignore it, but you were bashing against it.”
I am a supported of “fail check” probability.
There are abilities that failing the check means wipe.
Take Zonozz, Ultraxion, Hagara, and in older Tiers Baleroc, Majordomo, Elementium monstrocity, Al Akir.
All those fights are harder in 25, because no matter how good you re, there is a % of fail, even for the best one, especially in progress.
Now, if the % is the same per person (same skill 10 man and same skill 25), but the number of people involved in the check are more, then the total % of the group to pass the fail check in 25 is by a large margin smaller, which defaults in a wipe.
10 people raids had harder encounters, on those fights with certain setup limitations to deal with the mechanics.
The Rogue in valiona and theralion, the 2 tank limitation + the need for discipline priest in halfus etc.
All in all, there are 2 different things, with different problems and different limitations resulting by default, that all encounters will not be balanced, and that certain encounters will be easier for the one format combared to the other.
Yet they re treated as the same!
That is the major flaw of this system.
There should at least be different achievements and different realm firsts, because it is the fair thing to do.
The hole concept of cataclysm cannot work. You cannot equalize two different things. Even if you actively try to do it by tuning the encounters properly(which also is close to impossible), the different problems each size has to deal with will always alter the difficulty of the encounter in favor of the smaller or the bigger size.
What was the point then?
Since it is not doable why it was brought up?
Well, the answer I concluded to, is fairly safe to say it is the correct one.
They would delete 25s, if guilds like paragon, method ensidia, were willing to raid smaller size and not stop raiding.
They would have done it, thinking that with smaller sizes you increase accessibility. And their constant nightmare is this bloody accessibility.
Well, they were wrong!
By promoting the smaller size, they promoted the trend for the good and depentable players, to EXCLUDE bad players and casual players.
Thus the access was reduced, because even for a 10 man to exist, you need someone to lead it!
How many guilds you know that the worse raider of their team was their raid leader?
That is right, the leaders and the officers downsized with themselves included, and those leaders that were completely reluctant to go with the flaw and raid 10 but saw that is impossible to maintain their 25 STOPPED raiding!
Result?
In 3 consecutive tiers, the total kills of 10+25 people teams was SMALLER than the total kill in Tier 10 (ICC) 10+25!
That means fewer people are raiding today vs Wrath, and if you take the blend of teams not (90% 10 man and only 10% 25) vs Wrath (70% 10+25 vs 30% strict 10 man), and by a % much larger than the decline in subs!
That is the ultimate failure of Blizzard in this expansion!
They brought smt to increase access to raids, and instead the access was reduced, lol!
That is why, dear Danis and others, we have today the monstrocity called LFR.
An automated tool that will increase the access to all future raiding tiers.
But at the same moment, a tool that will demand encounters to be designed around its needs. And also everybody can step in and roflstomp the entire raid
That tool will trash down every raid from now on, and nobody will remember any of those new raids, the way they remember today Nax 40, Sunwell, Ulduar!
The time of the legendary raids went and there is no turning back.
What blizzard managed with this expansion, is to bring a system that defeated the purpose it was invented for, and by doing so Blizzard was forced to bring a tool that will trash down and trivialize most of the things related to raiding in the future!
Enjoy 10 mans people! You managed to exclude “bads”, but the “bads” will enter your “raid” in every tier from now on, with all their alts, with the push of a button, kill all the bosses you kill, take the loot you need on mains at start and alts later, and laugh at you that you re wiping 1000 times to do the same boss in “heroic”!