I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[Wildtree]

no shit more are "raiding" if all you need to do nowadays is join lfr and go afk and press need when shinies drop.

you don't press the "need that shiny" button anymore. The system handles if you get something or not.

[Deleted]

no shit more are "raiding" if all you need to do nowadays is join lfr and go afk and press need when shinies drop.

I don't know about the statistics but I'm fairly sure more people are "seriously raiding" than in TBC aswell. LFR isn't counted as raiding per se, sometimes not even by Blizzard.

[Dylamoo]

http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5121_25

685 25-man Sinestra kills up to today (that includes whole lot of facerolling with FL and DS gear), for let's say 32 people per guild = 21920

http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5121_10

1374 10-man Sinestra kills with average of 12 ppl per guild = 16488

25+10 size players together = 38408


That's about 40k players out of 10 million who has been able to finish T11 up to today, or less than 0.5% of all players. So yes, raiders capable of doing heroic modes are extremely tiny minority and catering to 0.5% of your potential customers is a suicide for any kind of business.

*Facepalm* another one of those retards. Great you have numbers!...... but do those numbers ever tell you how people felt about the content? no good job at your getting statistics but that's not the underlying issue.

Infracted - Wilderness

[Grogo]

Why are you ignoring the GOOD posts of people not agreeing with you? The ones that actually have a point and don't just mindlessly disagree with you. Oh yeah, it's because you are the exact same as the posters who simply say "bah elitism". You repeated yourself so often in this thread. Try looking at some of my answers to people and don't try to come out victorious out of a discussion with a guy who doesn't/probably won't reply anyways.

Most of your points have been countered in this thread, yet the only thing you do is repeat your opinion without any facts. BC raiding wasn't nearly as popular as you describe it, neither did it "work well".

Yes some have been countered, does not make them right nor does it change my opinion. it is their opinion but so far has not swayed my opinion, which can be swayed, but has not been swayed. Where is something specific that speaks directly to what I originally stated in this thread?

[Anuibus]

http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5121_25

685 25-man Sinestra kills up to today (that includes whole lot of facerolling with FL and DS gear), for let's say 32 people per guild = 21920

http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5121_10

1374 10-man Sinestra kills with average of 12 ppl per guild = 16488

25+10 size players together = 38408


That's about 40k players out of 10 million who has been able to finish T11 up to today, or less than 0.5% of all players. So yes, raiders capable of doing heroic modes are extremely tiny minority and catering to 0.5% of your potential customers is a suicide for any kind of business.

Makes me glad that I was one of those to finish one of the hardest bosses in cata while it was still difficult. Heroic raiding after that was kind of meh for me with all the bosses being relatively easy compared to the last boss, rather than getting progressively difficult.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ecruisr/simple

[Madruga]

Well, OP, your post is fundamentally wrong.

There are MORE people doing raids than ever, not less as you stated. In BC, less than 1% of the comunity saw Killjaeden. Nowadays, A LOT of people are Saviors.

That given, Blizzard already said that making raids only available to a select people is bad for business. They have to gather funds to make content, and bosses that less than 1% of the comunity will even see is not a good way to make investor give their money to the game.

So your post is not only wrong, but going against what Blizzard is doing to the game, and going against what the majority of people want.

[Deleted]

you don't press the "need that shiny" button anymore. The system handles if you get something or not.

great what's next ? swipe creditcard for BiS char?

[Wildtree]

So tell me how does ferrari manage to stay in business then?

They cater to a limited clientel... you want Blizzard to make you provr them that you have at least a half million dollar in your account, before they sell you the game?
Because that's what Ferrari actually does. They don't sell to everyone.

[Tomana]

What I have seen so far in this thread, a few things stand out.

You may want to check your eyesight then.

1. people insist on calling elitism, not sure how people jump to that

Denying people the ability to raid because you want to be special is elitism.

2. There is definitely support for the BC raiding style and vibe

But it is a small (albeit vocal) minority. Most people (including those who actually experienced BC raiding) wouldn't go back.

3. People cant raid the way it was meant to be and that way it should be, so they want it brought down to their level or life-style, which in turn ruins what raiding should and was all about

The thing is, the editor decides what raiding should be, not forum posters.

4. Again, BC model was huge for a reason

Because it was new and because other games were even more hardcore and there was no other casual MMORPGs. People simply couldn't imagine casual MMOs because such a thing did not exist.

[XDurionX]

Geez, people are STILL complaining about lfr?

[Saffa]

Oh god not this post again. In any game if you get to a hard part you get better or gtfo.

Get real. There is no need in the game to raid ^^ Part of my subscription goes to give you snowflakes your bit of fun when really you could have a game with just a raid in it, getting harder and hard (or not as some of you are actually really bad at it) and nothing else. You do not want to play WORLD of Warcraft, you want to play 'I gotta raid and pretend I am really good'. Why not find a game that does just that and leave this one for those of us who like the whole world aspect of it not just a teeny bit on 1 small server

[Anuibus]

There are MORE people doing raids than ever, not less as you stated. In BC, less than 1% of the comunity saw Killjaeden. Nowadays, A LOT of people are Saviors.

I personally don't see LFR as raiding, but that's kind of irrelevent as the OP said there should still be a tier for learning the fight/lore.

Get real. There is no need in the game to raid ^^ Part of my subscription goes to give you snowflakes your bit of fun when really you could have a game with just a raid in it, getting harder and hard (or not as some of you are actually really bad at it) and nothing else. You do not want to play WORLD of Warcraft, you want to play 'I gotta raid and pretend I am really good'. Why not find a game that does just that and leave this one for those of us who like the whole world aspect of it not just a teeny bit on 1 small server

I've never felt the need to be a special snowflake, I just appreciated the challenge and feeling of thwarting a challenge that old raids used to provide. I was never in it for the gear and you assuming that just because someone wants to be a hardcore raider, that they want to be a special snowflake in town with BiS gear showing it off is a faulty assumption.

[Tomana]

Maybe I'm missing something (I haven't been subbed for over a year), but is there something wrong with the current model that prevents the "real raiders" from enjoying raid content? Or is it only that "filthy casuals" are able to enjoy similar-yet-different content?

The something wrong are some pseudo-hardcore raiders who can't stand "bads" raiding "their" content.
Back then, most of them would prolly be stuck in Kara (okay, maybe SSC/TK), but logic is not the greatest asset of most people anyway.

[Deleted]

pointless to argue this in the game since its a issue all over the world. from the age 5-15 if you enter any kind of tornament you mostlikely get the same price as the winner. You are given equal shinys for not even equal skill.

[Deleted]

They cater to a limited clientel... you want Blizzard to make you provr them that you have at least a half million dollar in your account, before they sell you the game?
Because that's what Ferrari actually does. They don't sell to everyone.

Well i could say an IQ test being mandatory for any MMO wouldn't be that bad of a requirement to make sure there is a quality playerbase instead of people who post on official forums why they can't keybind alt+f4( yes this actually happened)
don't forget a MMO requires to play with other players to make it work, putting a pro soccer player in some sunday afternoon team of the elderly wouldn't be fun for anyone.
it would certainly even the playing field thus removing said need of LFR because one level of content would appeal to pretty much all of the players........

[Kesandri]

because it is not raiding, it would a bastardized version of raiding that is forced upon those that remember what it was all about. Is LFR forced upon me? No. But it changes things. The main thing...lets kill a boss, lets do it again but with a bullshit ability added.

No. If you want to raid then raid, lets stop half-assing it. bring back the BC raiding model, it was popular and worked.

The BC raiding model is and was only popular with the small % of players that raided during it. There was a number of players who also did not like the bc raiding model that HAD to raid with it to see what was a huge part of the game otherwise miss out completely. There was no choice in bc, you did it that way or no way and quite frankly if it was still that way today the game imo (yes that means my opinion, not made up so called facts) would still not have the amount of subs it has now.

The game a few years back was new and refreshing, nothing could touch it even though some tried and failed and that included the raiding too however, the game like many other things has to adapt and move on just like we all do in life.

Blizzard have made raiding the way it is today because that is what the majority want, you can disagree with this and argue about what in your opinion is best and what all of the playerbase want (again, in your opinion) but the FACT is only blizzard know what most of their playerbase want, only blizzard know how many people actually raid and in what diff levels, and quite frankly while your ofc allowed an opinion, how about you remind yourself it is your opinion and stop shoving it down our throats like we are not allowed ours.

Believe it or not you are not the only one who plays this game and you are not the only one who pays for this game.

[Tomana]

Oh god not this post again. In any game if you get to a hard part you get better or gtfo.

Yes, and then people gtfo, and then the game collapses and everything is in the cold. Great idea, tell that to a lot of MMO developers whose sub base cannot breach 1 Mil while WoW has almost 10x that number.

[gamingmuscle]

So tell me how does ferrari manage to stay in business then?

Ummm does ferrari only produce cars that only 5% of its customer base can afford/would want? No. They may have exceptions where only 100 of this car will be produced and if you're unable to spend $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ you're outta luck. But that is a subset, that is their heroic mode. It is not their entire product line.

[Tomana]

So tell me how does ferrari manage to stay in business then?
quality over quantity any day

Do you know how much a Ferrari costs?
Well, in WoW it would work if you paid perhaps 150$ a month for a sub. Could you afford that?

[Marthenil]

What I mainly disagree with is Blizzard's shit philosophy of difficulties=content. I'm sick and tired of running one (mind me, small) raid day after day then proceeding and doing the same thing on heroic. This is what the average raider does. Hardcore ones clear normal once and move on to heroic sure, but less-hardcore ones have to clear and clear and clear, This is what I miss from TBC. You had a sence of CONTENT progression. Cleared Kara->Gruul's etc. Better guilds moved on to harder raids easier and faster while worse ones had to farm a bit more.
My proposal: Remove difficulties. Add more raids with progressing difficulty level. As the time goes on, nerf said instances progressively until they are reachable by almost everyone.

EDIT: The nerf could even be realm side as in: After a period of time a 5% buff to every player in the raid is applied. After some more time whenever a group clears the raid on a realm you get an increase to the buff (up to a weekly cap and a general cap).