Gaza rocket fire resumes

[someotherguy]

Now, now, gentleman. We shouldn't be arguing over who has seen the bigger pile of crap. Let's all agree that the situation is terrible.

On Topic:
Hamas is an organization that grows because Israel is doing a terrible job of giving the palestinians any reason to believe them. Therefore, Israel is shooting itself in the foot every time it shoots a missile at civilians. You do not get peaceful resolution by killing civilians, that makes the problem worse.

Some of the civilians killed in Gaza were killed by Hamas by having rockets fail, or whatever. It would be interesting to see how many civilians were killed by Israel in Gaza vs by Hamas' mistakes firing their rockets. Israel reported 100 rockets fired by Hamas didn't make it to Israel.

[lupii]

Some of the civilians killed in Gaza were killed by Hamas by having rockets fail, or whatever. It would be interesting to see how many civilians were killed by Israel in Gaza vs by Hamas' mistakes firing their rockets. Israel reported 100 rockets fired by Hamas didn't make it to Israel.

Considering apparently theyve launched 1000, one word: newbies. They have newbies firing the rockets =P That is all.

Interesting to look at once the dust has settled.

[cubby]

Well, I'd like to start by also saying that the situation is very messy in there which was result of bad decisions from both sides over the last decade (not going to discuss who started it, it doesn't matter really). Hamas getting elected into power was really unfortunate, Palestine and Israel were at their closest point to have peace. Unfortunately, after Hamas took over they've made sure that opposition was either absorbed or destroyed, leaving the Palestinians with no options other than Hamas or fighting Hamas, the latter could result in a big massacre. What am trying to say here is that the Palestinians are trapped with a "government" that they cannot get rid of without much innocent blood being spilled and the IDF blockade on the other side whom are suspicious of them. On the other hand, Israel has reinforced that fear with their use of "questionable" methods to exterminate Hamas.

What I suggest the Palestinians do? I really don't know it is a very hard situation and I am inexperienced to say what they should do. On the other hand, what I wish would happen is easier to say which is basically a. Hamas being removed (somehow) from the conflict. b. A compromise for peace between the Palestinians and Israelis, even better they maybe could revisit the UN two-state plan and revise it or create a joined one state plan. c. Ideally I'd like the pissing match to stop between Israel and Iran (including Hezbollah).

I've read this twice, and I can't disagree with any of it. Another poster in this thread said almost as much. So, honestly, what would be wrong - in the end - with the IDF coming in full force, removing Hamas forcibly, and then negotiating with the U.N. (representing Palestine) for a two-state treaty?

(and yes, I realize how messy it would be - but what other solution is there?)

[Olo]

Some of the civilians killed in Gaza were killed by Hamas by having rockets fail, or whatever. It would be interesting to see how many civilians were killed by Israel in Gaza vs by Hamas' mistakes firing their rockets. Israel reported 100 rockets fired by Hamas didn't make it to Israel.

I'd like to see those numbers too. Seems pretty evident that these rockets end up doing more damage to Gaza than Israel.

[cubby]

They have a missile defence system. Only one missile (from what I know of) has gotten through it. Meanwhile, every missile Israel sends hits its target. Sounds to me that Israel has it pretty good compared to the other side.

You know what would be even better? If Palestine stopped shooting them in the first place.

[Venant]

Somebody is benefiting from this politically. Is the situation a ploy by the hawks controlling the government in Israel to hold power through the coming elections? The constant fear mongering is similar to what we had during the Bush administration in the US. In the long run, militarizing the region is going to be bad for Israel, but for the time being they will pursue this strategy because they do not see the possibility of actually losing an armed conflict against their neighbors. Seems odd that the possibility of war is far higher when one side has a guarantee of military superiority.

[N-7]

I've read this twice, and I can't disagree with any of it. Another poster in this thread said almost as much. So, honestly, what would be wrong - in the end - with the IDF coming in full force, removing Hamas forcibly, and then negotiating with the U.N. (representing Palestine) for a two-state treaty?

(and yes, I realize how messy it would be - but what other solution is there?)

Sadly, I don't really see any peaceful solution, if that were to happen I would probably be one of the first Muslims to give my blessing to these two countries.

EDIT: What if Israel took in (as refugees), children, women, and elderly in non-forceful manner just offer it as an option (or any known non-Hamas member) if they are going in a full-ground attack? wouldn't reduce causalities and give them some brownie points with the world?

[lupii]

You know what would be even better? If Palestine stop shooting them in the first place?

Little late for that, Mr. Pro-Israel. Both sides are gonna shoot each other until either a ceasefire is called or they run out of missiles, which in that case will follow up with ground invasion. That is my theory, but you can't say that if one side stops shooting, the other will cease. That just isn't common sense.

And it's not a personal attack, I'm just stating the obvious with your stance =P

[cubby]

Little late for that, Mr. Pro-Israel. Both sides are gonna shoot each other until either a ceasefire is called or they run out of missiles, which in that case will follow up with ground invasion. That is my theory, but you can't say that if one side stops shooting, the other will cease. That just isn't common sense.

And it's not a personal attack, I'm just stating the obvious with your stance =P

Lol, I meant if they didn't initiate it in the first place. But yeah, probably too late now.

[Powerogue]

The Warring in Israel's region is never going to end at this rate. We need to pull out and let them quarrel.

[Beavis]

Aren't you guys sick of arguing about this yet? FFS, I don't think a single opinion has been changed in 56 pages.

[cubby]

Aren't you guys sick of arguing about this yet? FFS, I don't think a single opinion has been changed in 56 pages.

Apparently not, and it's an interesting model/view of the real conflict.

Plus, many views have changed, you just have to see the subtleties to find them.

[JeDayKeen]

They have a missile defence system. Only one missile (from what I know of) has gotten through it. Meanwhile, every missile Israel sends hits its target. Sounds to me that Israel has it pretty good compared to the other side.

Roughly 25% gets throuh. FYI.

And trust me, no has it "pretty good" around here.

[Wilian]

Part of an article from Helsingin Sanomat (News) of Finland of the morning, article by person who went to Gaza to report on subject, living with some family.

When the bomb fell on Sunday afternoon, we were watching TV from the house on opposite side of the street. "We heard loud explosion and massive amounts of beton and steel blew through windows from the bombed building.", tells the mother of the family, Nashwa Alashi, 48.
All the windows of large living room are shattered, and the view opening onto a building with barely remnats of walls is hopeless. The father Majed Alashi, 57, injured lightly on his arm. He got back from hospital on monday already.

"This is the second time we're struck here. Hamas has never fired any rockets from here and they have no fighter nor members here." the father says. "What sort of life this is?"


So yeaaah, about aiming only at terrorist sites based on accurate information. Oh, and right, another 13 year old died in that bombing.

[Kasierith]

Aren't you guys sick of arguing about this yet? FFS, I don't think a single opinion has been changed in 56 pages.

I thought the same thing about politics when, 3 days after the megathreads were taken down, about a fourth of the front page was taken up by political threads.

I've read this twice, and I can't disagree with any of it. Another poster in this thread said almost as much. So, honestly, what would be wrong - in the end - with the IDF coming in full force, removing Hamas forcibly, and then negotiating with the U.N. (representing Palestine) for a two-state treaty?

(and yes, I realize how messy it would be - but what other solution is there?)

An all out military assault would be the worst thing that could happen, and I honestly hope that were such a thing to come of this, the United States will finally step aside and allow the rest of the world, including France and Britain, to bring Israel to account for its actions.

So what should they do, just sit there and take it?

I don't think the only alternative to "sitting there and taking it" should be shooting missiles into the homes of Palestinian officials to purposefully kill civilians. It does not follow and is grossly irresponsible for a modern military.

[cubby]

Part of an article from Helsingin Sanomat (News) of Finland of the morning, article by person who went to Gaza to report on subject, living with some family.

When the bomb fell on Sunday afternoon, we were watching TV from the house on opposite side of the street. "We heard loud explosion and massive amounts of beton and steel blew through windows from the bombed building.", tells the mother of the family, Nashwa Alashi, 48.
All the windows of large living room are shattered, and the view opening onto a building with barely remnats of walls is hopeless. The father Majed Alashi, 57, injured lightly on his arm. He got back from hospital on monday already.

"This is the second time we're struck here. Hamas has never fired any rockets from here and they have no fighter nor members here." the father says. "What sort of life this is?"

So yeaaah, about aiming only at terrorist sites based on accurate information. Oh, and right, another 13 year old died in that bombing.

When you put up one-sided stuff like this, all I can say is, perhaps Palestine should stop lobbing rockets into random civilian areas and blowing other random civilians up with car and suicide bombs.

And if Hamas would stop hiding behind their civilians, perhaps Israel would have a more successful time killing them.

[Wilian]

When you put up one-sided stuff like this, all I can say is, perhaps Palestine should stop lobbing rockets into random civilian areas and blowing other random civilians up with car and suicide bombs.

And if Hamas would stop hiding behind their civilians, perhaps Israel would have a more successful time killing them.

3 dead versus over 100 with over third of them children. I can totally see which side is overblown. Besides it's not article picking sides, it's article descriping situation where the reporter works around. Reality sucks huh.

[Olo]

I don't think the only alternative to "sitting there and taking it" should be shooting missiles into the homes of Palestinian officials to purposefully kill civilians. It does not follow and is grossly irresponsible for a modern military.

I don't understand this claim. If it was true the death count would be much higher.

[cubby]

An all out military assault would be the worst thing that could happen, and I honestly hope that were such a thing to come of this, the United States will finally step aside and allow the rest of the world, including France and Britain, to bring Israel to account for its actions.

And who will bring Palestine to account for their actions? I agree that a full scale military assault would be the worst, but it would end the violence, restore peace and establish a two-state system.

I don't think the only alternative to "sitting there and taking it" should be shooting missiles into the homes of Palestinian officials to purposefully kill civilians. It does not follow and is grossly irresponsible for a modern military.

I'm not sure you meant to say something this inflamatory. The Palestinian "officials" are the ones ordering the rocket attacks on Israeli citizens (and suicide attacks, and car bombs) and are also the one cowering behind civilians, rather than facing their foes directly.

Apologies if I assumed too much from your previous posts, and I'm open to hearing a further explanation from you.

Edit: removed personal remark

[Kasierith]

I don't understand this claim. If it was true the death count would be much higher.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...tic-diplomacy/

They aren't targeting militia gathering spots, they aren't targeting people on the streets... they're targeting homes, wiping out wives and children as well. I'm listening to the news right now in the background, and they even targeted an art museum, an entire building, to kill a single person inside, and after wounding dozens and killing a civilian declared it a "Success" because those aside, they did kill the intended target. There is a reason why the civilian casualty ratio in the conflict is so high.

"Overall, the offensive that began Wednesday killed 96 Palestinians, including 50 civilians, and wounded some 720 people, Gaza heath official Ashraf al-Kidra said. Among the wounded were 225 children, he said."

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 06:18 AM ----------

And who will bring Palestine to account for their actions? I agree that a full scale military assault would be the worst, but it would end the violence, restore peace and establish a two-state system.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../usvetoes.html
The greater part of the world is not happy with how Israel has been allowed to go unchecked. Notice that that is the security council, not the GA or some sort of special committee like the HRC. So when there is 14-1 in favor of condemning Israel's actions, you know from that exactly what countries in the world recognize that Israel has, for a long time, crossed the line in terms of how to handle a political conflict.

From your previous posts that you would have enough common sense not to post something as obtuse as this. The Palestinian "officials" are the ones ordering the rocket attacks on Israeli citizens (and suicide attacks, and car bombs) and are also the one cowering behind civilians, rather than facing their foes directly.

Apologies if I assumed too much from your previous posts, and I'm open to hearing a further explanation from you.

Exactly what is the death toll that Hamas has inflicted on Israel? And have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, the people taking up the fight against Israel are simple, ordinary people? It goes into the twisted perspective that Hamas has instilled in the people, but I thought an American especially would understand the sentiment of liberty or death.