Anduin/Operation Shieldwall (Major Spoiler)!

[shadofall]

Garrosh going Sauron for some reason

it never surprised me how garrosh has turned out.. he had sever daddy issues from the moment we met him. throw in living in his dad's shadow when he learns the truth. then asked to take over for thrall and living in his shadow of accomplishments as well. its no wonder he's gone over the edge trying to prove him self no matter the cost.

[Verdugo]

I actually never understood what was the big deal with purge of Stratholme. Arthas destroyed a city full of zombies - what's so monstrous about it?

Apparently its "evil" when they are still alive.

[Cybran]

Too bad the little Hippie doesn't die in the end. World of Lovingcraft all the way! (Lovecraft i an amazing author so lovingcraft intstead)

[Combatbutler]

Apparently its "evil" when they are still alive.

Those people were dead, they just didn't know it yet. Stratholme was necessary, morally wrong but it had to be done.

[Verdugo]

Those people were dead, they just didn't know it yet. Stratholme was necessary, morally wrong but it had to be done.

It just shows how paladins are useless, they cant win major battles while staying pure.

[Trassk]

Those people were dead, they just didn't know it yet. Stratholme was necessary, morally wrong but it had to be done.

When a character crosses that moral line so easily they also easily become corrupted, either by something outside, or there own beliefs.

[Combatbutler]

When a character crosses that moral line so easily they also easily become corrupted, either by something outside, or there own beliefs.

It had to be done, unfortunately for Arthas he was too weak to handle it.

[Okacz]

Those people were dead, they just didn't know it yet. Stratholme was necessary, morally wrong but it had to be done.

I guess the "big" thing there wasn't taking actions, it was that, well, Arthas didn't really take time to think before stopping at the genocide option and sticking with it witout any real difficulty. Coming to think of it, there were lots of innocent and healthy people there. If he could take actions so fast, why didn't he ride there, and I don't know, herald "DO NO IT THE DAMN BREAD" and placing a quarantine over the city? He had enough people to do it, and he could save at least a couple of innocent people.

[Verdugo]

When a character crosses that moral line so easily they also easily become corrupted, either by something outside, or there own beliefs.

So it would be better if Lordaeron was swarmed before Jaina could evacuate.

[shadofall]

Those people were dead, they just didn't know it yet. Stratholme was necessary, morally wrong but it had to be done.

its hard to see the issue of Stratholme as a player esp since we know there was no way to save them. but look at it in a perspective of if you were really there. electing to eraticate these people because of what they will become with out even determing if tehy could be saved would be a horrid concept. had he not gone the way he did in the end i think history would of seen Stratholme diffrently as the people of azeroth learned there was no hope for them.

[Combatbutler]

I guess the "big" thing there wasn't taking actions, it was that, well, Arthas didn't really take time to think before stopping at the genocide option and sticking with it witout any real difficulty. Coming to think of it, there were lots of innocent and healthy people there. If he could take actions so fast, why didn't he ride there, and I don't know, herald "DO NO IT THE DAMN BREAD" and placing a quarantine over the city? He had enough people to do it, and he could save at least a couple of innocent people.

The problem with the plague is, that it spreads at an alarming rate, he already saw that in Hearthglen, he had no time and couldn't risk infected people to escape. The most ironic thing is neither Jaina or Uther were in hearthglen as the population turned, they might have supported him if they had actually seen it.

[Thage]

I guess the "big" thing there wasn't taking actions, it was that, well, Arthas didn't really take time to think before stopping at the genocide option and sticking with it witout any real difficulty. Coming to think of it, there were lots of innocent and healthy people there. If he could take actions so fast, why didn't he ride there, and I don't know, herald "DO NO IT THE DAMN BREAD" and placing a quarantine over the city? He had enough people to do it, and he could save at least a couple of innocent people.

I think the big thing about Stratholme was that Arthas was obviously starting to crack beforehand, and he couldn't handle the strain of doing what needed to be done despite the moral ramifications. He lost his mind in there, and that, coupled with the Culling itself, is why Stratholme stands today as an object lesson in tragedy.

edit: Glad to see Anduin lives after all. Now that Blizz tossed Jaina into the lolcrazy pile, he and his pop are the only voices of reason in the Alliance that get any worthwhile screentime anymore.

[Okacz]

Problem is with the plague spread at an alarming rate, he already saw that in Hearthglen, he had no time and couldn't risk an infected person to escape. The most ironic thing is neither Jaina or Uther were in hearthglen as the population turned, they might have supported him if they had actually seen it.

Well yeah, the most "evil characters" that were present there were Uther and Jaina. Uther, wise, experianced, old, blessed and stuff champion of the light... And he is just looking there, hopeless? Really, he had no plan, if Arthas wasn't there it seems like he would just let the plague spread. And Jaina? The only thing she did was just pissing Arthas even more. No finding other ways, no using magic to help, no alarming Antonidas, just "you wanna do this desperate move Arthas? I don't like you anymore!".

[Rivellana]

I actually never understood what was the big deal with purge of Stratholme. Arthas destroyed a city full of zombies - what's so monstrous about it?

The way the lore read/looked to me was that the people in the city have not turned yet when Arthas arrives there. They are sure that the poisoned grain has been delivered there but when they first enter the city, the people appear to be alive and normal. It was that point that Arthas decided that "purging" (I can't stand the word, here or where it applies to Dalaran) Stratholme was the only option and that it didn't matter if the people were living or undead, that he didn't need to try to differentiate and would just kill every single one of them no matter what, even if they were living in order to ensure that they didn't miss an undead. That was the part that was "monstrous", not the actual killing of the undead.

My memory is a bit foggy but I do believe that action and his whole crazed/revenge/follow Mal'ganis to Northrend/find the cursed weapon (that he knew was cursed) storyline was before he was ever officially corrupted. Thus he was "only human" that entire time.

yea except i dont see Jaina picking up a cursed weapon to completly corrupt her, this was the final key to arthas, up till this point his path was still uncertain

is she walking a dangerous line. sure. but to accuse of her being like garrosh or arthas post fall at this point is a bit much.

I don't think she's like Garrosh, or ever will be. Like I've already said (and others have said), I could see Jaina following an Arthas-like path. Not being corrupted by something like a weapon or the Sha, but going down the same dangerous path that Arthas did before he was officially corrupted. It's all speculation.

[Combatbutler]

I think the big thing about Stratholme was that Arthas was obviously starting to crack beforehand, and he couldn't handle the strain of doing what needed to be done despite the moral ramifications. He lost his mind in there, and that, coupled with the Culling itself, is why Stratholme stands today as an object lesson in tragedy.

Exactly, ironically Arthas downfall was his love to his people, if he hadn't cared and discarded them like chess pieces he wouldn't have broken, but he loved them and each person he couldn't save weighed down on him and in stratholme he was actually forced to kill them, that broke him.

Well yeah, the most "evil characters" that were present there were Uther and Jaina. Uther, wise, experianced, old, blessed and stuff champion of the light... And he is just looking there, hopeless? Really, he had no plan, if Arthas wasn't there it seems like he would just let the plague spread. And Jaina? The only thing she did was just pissing Arthas even more. No finding other ways, no using magic to help, no alarming Antonidas, just "you wanna do this desperate move Arthas? I don't like you anymore!".

Their inaction was always puzzling, but such things happen in lore quite often, reason is tossed aside, the most recent example would be Aethas ,who refused to leave even though he saw just how pissed Jaina was.

[Thage]

Well yeah, the most "evil characters" that were present there were Uther and Jaina. Uther, wise, experianced, old, blessed and stuff champion of the light... And he is just looking there, hopeless? Really, he had no plan, if Arthas wasn't there it seems like he would just let the plague spread. And Jaina? The only thing she did was just pissing Arthas even more. No finding other ways, no using magic to help, no alarming Antonidas, just "you wanna do this desperate move Arthas? I don't like you anymore!".

Uther's shock and Jaina's refusal to help him were entirely in character for both of them. Jaina even advised quarantining Stratholme and going to Dalaran to figure out an alternative solution before Arthas stripped Uther of his command and ordered anyone who wouldn't help him cull the city to get out of his sight.

[Combatbutler]

Uther's shock and Jaina's refusal to help him were entirely in character for both of them. Jaina even advised quarantining Stratholme and going to Dalaran to figure out an alternative solution before Arthas stripped Uther of his command and ordered anyone who wouldn't help him cull the city to get out of his sight.

I had expected them to try to get in his way to be honest.

[Thage]

I had expected them to try to get in his way to be honest.

The bonds of love (almost-paternal for Uther and romantic for Jaina) are hard to break. I know if my best friend, or my protoge lost his mind and decided to attempt a murder, I'd walk out and call the cops like Uther did (Uther reported to Terenas about what happened; which is why Arthas gets the withdrawal order from his father in Northrend).

[Deleted]

Whats making this even more of a mess and hard to follow seriously, is how one minute in the cinematic of Jaina in dalaran, talking about her using dalaran as a beacon for peace, she drops all that just to become no better then Garrosh. How is anyone meant to take her words seriously about peace if she keeps switching between wanting to kill horde one moment and make peace with them the next.
Now as you say, if she held blame on the one who did this, Garrosh, who is responsible, she would appear to be using reason. But her outset shows little of her wanting to end this peacefully, unlike Varian who has it together (at last)

To be fair, I think it's Fennie on the Alliance side who explains it well. I don't remember the exact quote but keep in mind this woman tried for many, many years to make peace between the Horde and Alliance. She forgave the horde for Theramore, she forgave them so many other things and then finally Garrosh incites a faction within her own people to betray her and humiliate her. (I mean, think of how weak it also made Jaina look, being humiliated by being betrayed like that by her own people).

While I see where you're going with your perspective that she's somewhat mirroring Garrosh slightly, you should try playing the devils advocate for a moment and see it the other way around. Jaina lost her home city and shrugged it off, being willing to move past it still - would Garrosh react the same way if the Alliance just bombed Orgrimmar? =)

- In final words, however, I do agree with most of your views regarding the whole thing. It's especially saddening that the Horde come across as such bastards because of this, even I feel a bit sad when playing my Horde (Mostly because I'm a Roleplayer). But then again, try the devils advocate for a moment and think from the other side of it. No matter how pro or con you are of Garrosh, are you not doing the 5.1 content? Are you not fighting the Alliance and assisting Garrosh on his cause etc.?

It would be completely unfair to ask a Horde player, myself included, not to experience the 5.1 content, but I can't just sit there and say "I'm doing this but I'm not evil because I'm horde" but it does'nt work that way. So long as I do the bidding of Garrosh, as reluctant as possible, I am an evil bastard like he is. When he's finally gone, I can begin redemption =)

[Breccia]

yea except i dont see Jaina picking up a cursed weapon to completly corrupt her, this was the final key to arthas, up till this point his path was still uncertain

I have to weigh in on this part. Read up on Arthas' lore, leading up to him picking up the cursed weapons. He had long since switched most of his talents into the Douchebag tree and was freely murdering his own countrymen (and not just the Culling, either). His path was certain: he had gone evil and deserved to die. Jaina is nowhere near that level of evil. Even as a die-hard Horde player, I don't see what she did as all that bad, especially in context.

On topic: I don't think Blizzard will move Dalaran to anywhere. Too much would need to be changed in the LK expansion, and I don't think it's worth the effort to them. Dalaran is too central to the continent to be removed. I also don't see them prohibiting the Horde there, for the same reason. Sometimes, the story that makes the most sense loses a fight against game rules and balance.