Sandy Hook could have been prevented

[Vyxn]

This is not another ban gun thread. There is enough of them going on and I'm getting tired of the knee jerk reaction. Its keeping us from discussing and addressing a much larger problem here in America and that is violence being committed by the mentally ill

I have just read an article that a bill was defeated by the Connecticut state legislation that could have prevented the tragedy. Connecticut Senate Bill 452 (SB452) would have forced the mentally ill like Adam Lanza to be treated for their mental illness instead of allowing him to roam free and be a possible threat to society. This bill was defeated thanks to the ACLU and other "civil liberties" groups and individuals. They claim it would violate a persons civil rights to be forced into treatment

Ok here is the hypocrisy. How is it right to violate a persons right to bare arms for the safety of society even if most people who own a gun are not a threat, but it is not fair to violate the rights of some individuals who are diagnosed by doctors that there is a chance they can be a threat and need to be treated or restrained for the safety of sociality

Ok i said my piece on gun control so lets get back to discussing the main problem. why we are having these mass shooting caused by violence of the mentally ill. what is causing their violence? what is causing them to want to kill? Mental illness is not new it is been with us since the beginning of man, but why has mentally ill violence become an epidemic in the last 20 years? every mass shooting has had a mentally ill person behind the trigger. I don't think society is causing the mental illness, but i believe society is triggering them to become violent. A sane person can distinguish between reality and make believe. We know the violence we see on TV, at the movies and in our video games isn't real and we don't let it lapse over into our reality, But a person with a mental illness has trouble from separating the two so the violence they see on TV, in the Movies and in video games can easily lapse into their reality. The violence they see on a daily bases could make them jaded. It could make them numb to the fact that when you kill it is for real their is no coming back these are real people unlike what is on TV, in the movies or in video games. They have no remorse they dint care of the repercussions

One other thing i will like to point out most mentally ill are very lonely they do not connect well with other humans so they secretly cry out for attention and they see how much attention we give to these mass killers on TV from the media. We all remember the names of this mass murders but seldom remember the names of the victims. We have become a society who almost worships these realty stars no matter how unimportant they are. Who would ever thought the name of a drunk train wreck of a party girl from new jersey would become a house hold name for doing nothing but make an ass out of her self , All you need to do in society is something over the top good or bad to become famous or infamous it doesn't matter either way you are remembered

So until we address and discuss the real issue, and that is violence in society and how it is affecting or mentally ill you can ban every gun but it wont solve the underlying problem the guns didn't make the mentally ill violent the illness did and what ever triggered them to make them perform their evil acts

[mjolnir1122]

I think you have an excellent point there.

As many here may know at this point, I am an avid supporter of the constitution and the second amendment. However, adding in additional screening for the purchase of firearms does not violate anyone's rights. In fact, I'm not sure why the regulations aren't stricter in the first place, because if they were, I'm sure theres a slight possiblity that we might see less of "let's ban guns altogether!", even though there will always be those who just don't want anyone to own them.

Now as to the latter part of your post, heres where things get tricky. The problem is nowadays everyone has some sort of thing wrong with them mentally. It's like we've reverted back to the 1600's where women who were moody because of their periods were labeled as bipolar or insane. In all honesty, I don't really trust modern medicine anymore. I'll still take things such as hydrocodone, ibuprofen, aspirin, etc. But a healthy diet, exercise, hard work, and occasionally vitamins (we don't get too much sun here up in this part of WA, so during winter I usually take D3's), keep's me plenty healthy without having to be on 80 different types of medications and 120 different types of vaccinations.

The problem with mental health is partly, as you stated, over indulgence of violence, but also over medication, mixed in with genetically enhanced foods and products. To top it all off anti social behavior, as you mentioned, is a another piece of the puzzle. The "internet revolution" has made anti-social behavior prevalent and glorified. Instant gratification is where it's at. My generation (1990-92) were the last generation who were really able to actually have a childhood. Playing outside with your friends, using our imagination, that's what I remember growing up. Shit, I didn't really start using the computer all that much until 1998, and didn't start using it for recreation until 2000. Growing up, we had things like Power Rangers, Linkin Park, and Action figures. Kids these days don't care about toys, they care about video games and updating their facebook, even though they're all of 8 years old. Growing up, I got my ass kicked when I stepped out of line, and praised when I did something really good. I didn't get a pat on the back for getting an F on a test or failing a class, I got punished. Now, this state of mind has been around since before my time, but it's only really blossomed within the lest 10-18 years or so. How the hell are kids supposed to learn right from wrong if they get rewarded for both?

So until we stop labeling every teenager as depressed and get a real grasp on actual mental disorders and behavior, and move away from the philosophy that everyone is a special snowflake, you will not see a decrease in these events. If anything, it's only going to get worse. Now I haven't the slightest clue how you change the media's message. How do we get Lady Gaga and Jersey Shore out of the limelight? Once we change the social trends and get kids back to thinking for themselves, we'll see a decrease in these events.

Sadly, none of these solutions is going to make any money, and as long as all of these "interests" stand to make a dollar, you will not see them budge an inch. They don't care about what's morally right, they all sold their souls a long time ago

[Hellishreaper]

There is so much disinfo going around and just plain a lot of info they aren't telling us, i mean.. was he really even mentally ill? people have talked to the kids he went to school with during what should have been his graduation year, they said he was normal, nice but very smart young kid, some said he could've been genious level though that could be an exaggeration, you still get the point. Considering the fact that they originally said their were 2 shooters, and some of the kids even saw a man being lead away in handcuffs.

[mjolnir1122]

There is so much disinfo going around and just plain a lot of info they aren't telling us, i mean.. was he really even mentally ill? people have talked to the kids he went to school with during what should have been his graduation year, they said he was normal, nice but very smart young kid, some said he could've been genious level though that could be an exaggeration, you still get the point. Considering the fact that they originally said their were 2 shooters, and some of the kids even saw a man being lead away in handcuffs.

Not only that, but if you saw, the story kept on changing throughout the day. Like not even minor changes, but the whole story. Tons of reports that he used an assault rifle, but it was later found that he actually used 2 handguns, but had an assault rifle in his car.

What happened was a tragedy, but what's even more tragic is that it seems that this has become entirely political, with one side trying to use this as leverage to ban guns, and the other side to turn this into a moneymaking media blitz. Both sides can go jump off a fiscal cliff

[Crissi]

There is so much disinfo going around and just plain a lot of info they aren't telling us, i mean.. was he really even mentally ill? people have talked to the kids he went to school with during what should have been his graduation year, they said he was normal, nice but very smart young kid, some said he could've been genious level though that could be an exaggeration, you still get the point. Considering the fact that they originally said their were 2 shooters, and some of the kids even saw a man being lead away in handcuffs.

The problem with asking peers is that a lot of the time, these peers dont actually recognise the signs. I can tell you none of my friends knew i had issues. Its pretty easy to cover it up if you want to.

I think the real issue is that what isnt over diagnosed, is ignored or we're told to "brush it off and get over it". At some point people with bad mental issues should be forced to get help, because at some point our mental illness wil begin to affect other people other than ourselves. What we really need is better and wider education, as well as mandatory instituton / help when the illness is deemed bad enough.

[Vyxn]

I think you have an excellent point there.

As many here may know at this point, I am an avid supporter of the constitution and the second amendment. However, adding in additional screening for the purchase of firearms does not violate anyone's rights. In fact, I'm not sure why the regulations aren't stricter in the first place, because if they were, I'm sure theres a slight possiblity that we might see less of "let's ban guns altogether!", even though there will always be those who just don't want anyone to own them.

Now as to the latter part of your post, heres where things get tricky. The problem is nowadays everyone has some sort of thing wrong with them mentally. It's like we've reverted back to the 1600's where women who were moody because of their periods were labeled as bipolar or insane. In all honesty, I don't really trust modern medicine anymore. I'll still take things such as hydrocodone, ibuprofen, aspirin, etc. But a healthy diet, exercise, hard work, and occasionally vitamins (we don't get too much sun here up in this part of WA, so during winter I usually take D3's), keep's me plenty healthy without having to be on 80 different types of medications and 120 different types of vaccinations.

The problem with mental health is partly, as you stated, over indulgence of violence, but also over medication, mixed in with genetically enhanced foods and products. To top it all off anti social behavior, as you mentioned, is a another piece of the puzzle. The "internet revolution" has made anti-social behavior prevalent and glorified. Instant gratification is where it's at. My generation (1990-92) were the last generation who were really able to actually have a childhood. Playing outside with your friends, using our imagination, that's what I remember growing up. Shit, I didn't really start using the computer all that much until 1998, and didn't start using it for recreation until 2000. Growing up, we had things like Power Rangers, Linkin Park, and Action figures. Kids these days don't care about toys, they care about video games and updating their facebook, even though they're all of 8 years old. Growing up, I got my ass kicked when I stepped out of line, and praised when I did something really good. I didn't get a pat on the back for getting an F on a test or failing a class, I got punished. Now, this state of mind has been around since before my time, but it's only really blossomed within the lest 10-18 years or so. How the hell are kids supposed to learn right from wrong if they get rewarded for both?

So until we stop labeling every teenager as depressed and get a real grasp on actual mental disorders and behavior, and move away from the philosophy that everyone is a special snowflake, you will not see a decrease in these events. If anything, it's only going to get worse. Now I haven't the slightest clue how you change the media's message. How do we get Lady Gaga and Jersey Shore out of the limelight? Once we change the social trends and get kids back to thinking for themselves, we'll see a decrease in these events.

Sadly, none of these solutions is going to make any money, and as long as all of these "interests" stand to make a dollar, you will not see them budge an inch. They don't care about what's morally right, they all sold their souls a long time ago

Your right we have become a society of a bunch of MEs who want it now and don't want to have to earn it they demand instant gratification. Just look at all the threads of these kids complaining they had to go out and do dailies for a couple of weeks in wow to earn some gear. its i by product of things like every one gets a trophy when they were a kid. when they finally get to an age where they find out they actually have to earn what ever they desire they cant cope with that reality and they feel they are being cheated out of what they think will make them happy and they lash out.
We are not properly raising our kids by treating then as you call it a little special snow flake and they cant function properly in the real adult word

[Dhurn]

One other thing i will like to point out most mentally ill are very lonely they do nor connect well with other humans so the secretly cry out for attention and they see how much attention we give to these mass killers on TV from the media. We all remember the names of this mass murders but seldom remember the names of the victims. We have become a society who almost worships these realty stars no matter how unimportant they are. Who would ever thought the name of a drunk train wreck of a party girl from new jersey would become a house hold name for doing nothing but make an ass out of her self , All you need to do in society is something over the top good or bad to become famous or infamous it doesn't matter either way you are remembered

I feel strongly that this is a big part of the issue. People who would have in the past committed suicide are now making their one last cry for attention in even more tragic fashion. You can't help but notice the troubling increase in frequency since Columbine and the attention it drew. The shooters in these cases always know they're going to their death, why kill others first? Because then people will notice.

[drukai]

The article that's been going around today, "I Am Adam Lanza's Mother" is a really poignant piece.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2311009.html

As someone who has mental illnesses that reach slightly into this territory, I know what it's like. I'm lucky, I have an extremely capable support system, and I myself am extremely aware of my emotions, but it makes life difficult. I am lonely, even when there are people around, because I don't have anyone I can connect to, or people who are even aware something's wrong. There isn't enough awareness of mental illness in this country, and unfortunately, our increased appetites for violent depictions, our antisocial socialization through online interaction, and that lack of awareness is leading to these wanton cries for attention.

Guns are not to blame, they are simply the tool with which Adam Lanza chose to get his attention. If you built a house, but failed to put in a sturdy foundation, would you blame the hammers and nails for the eventual collapse? No, you wouldn't. I honestly hope that mental healthcare in this country is put into the spotlight. It could be used to push a political agenda, quite honestly, that issue needs to be left to healthcare professionals, not to politicians, and if they start meddling in it (No matter how closely their goals align with mine), I will stand up, and I hope others do too. This is something that needs the whole country behind it, not just some sleazy politicians and money grabbing companies.

[Vyxn]

There is so much disinfo going around and just plain a lot of info they aren't telling us, i mean.. was he really even mentally ill? people have talked to the kids he went to school with during what should have been his graduation year, they said he was normal, nice but very smart young kid, some said he could've been genious level though that could be an exaggeration, you still get the point. Considering the fact that they originally said their were 2 shooters, and some of the kids even saw a man being lead away in handcuffs.

First you need to have a mental illnesses to kill 20 innocent kids

second people have the misconception that when they think of the mentally ill they picture some one drooling in corner beating his head against the wall. You will be surprised how many clinically mentally ill who test as guinesses but cant cope with any normalcy of reality,
I have read many accounts of former teachers and class mates of Adam Lanza and they said he was an awkward, withdrawn, society inept kid very smart but had problems even his brother has mentioned that he believed Adam had mental issues

One thing i will like to point out i thought was very strange the Older brother claimed he has had no contact with id younger brother since 2010 that is over 2 years is that the norm these days with family members not to talk to each other for over 2 years has the family unit dimenished that much in society now days maybe this is another reason for the rise in these kinds of violence

[semaphore]

Ok here is the hypocrisy. How is it right to violate a persons right to bare arms for the safety of society even if most person who own a gun are not a threat, but it is not right to violate the rights of some individuals who are diagnosed by doctors that there is a chance they can be a threat and need to be treated or restrained for the safety of sociality

The false equivalency of comparing regulating gun ownership to not being medicated and institionalised against your will is rather self serving.

Ok i said my piece on gun control so lets get back to discussing the main problem. why we are having these mass shooting caused by violence of the mentally ill. what is causing their violence? what is causing them to want to kill? Mental illness is not new it is been with us since the beginning of man, but why has mentally ill violence become an epidemic in the last 10 years?

Because it hasn't. It's been like this for decades.

[Vyxn]

I feel strongly that this is a big part of the issue. People who would have in the past committed suicide are now making their one last cry for attention in even more tragic fashion. You can't help but notice the troubling increase in frequency since Columbine and the attention it drew. The shooters in these cases always know they're going to their death, why kill others first? Because then people will notice.

But what can be done?
The very people who are screaming for gun bans are also fighting any legislation that wants to make people go get screened for mental illness and forced to get treatment if they are diagnosed with a mental illness
they argue we are profiling people with abnormal behavior and violating their civil rights forcing them to get treatment

[Vyxn]

The false equivalency of comparing regulating gun ownership to not being medicated and institionalised against your will is rather self serving.

So it is fine to violate a law abiding citizens right who isn't a threat to society for the public safety but we cant violate the rights of another that could possibly be a threat?

you are being selective on who should have their rights violated to push a political agenda

[semaphore]

The very people who are screaming for gun bans

Yeah no. When has the ACLU ever been "screaming for gun bans"? So much for not another ban gun thread, this is just a thinly veiled attempt at attacking your perceived opponents.

The ACLU disagrees with the Supreme Court's conclusion about the nature of the right protected by the Second Amendment. We do not, however, take a position on gun control itself. In our view, neither the possession of guns nor the regulation of guns raises a civil liberties issue.

---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 07:59 AM ----------

So it is fine to violate a law abiding citizens right who isn't a threat to society for the public safety but we cant violate the rights of another that could possibly be a threat?

How does regulating gun ownership violate your right?

Moreover, it is hypocritical of you to say they should be locked for being "possibly be a threat" yet you completely ignore that guns are also "possibly be a threat". The correct approach is to apply reasonable steps to minimise the risk, not to grandstand about rights being violated.

[MoanaLisa]

Unfortunately, the political climate at the state and federal level, especially the state level where it's more important, is that services of this kind are receiving less funding. It's fine when people clamor for more attention to this because it's true that it's extremely important but it's undeniable that without proper funding and a commitment to do the right thing from both sides of any political aisle, it rarely becomes more than words.

There are also serious concerns about how privacy would work with regard to this as well. Are you giving up privacy rights with regard to doctor/patient confidentiality if you visit a therapist for some reason and there's a law somewhere on the books that all-of-a-sudden suggests that you now need to be watched?

[Crissi]

Unfortunately, the political climate at the state and federal level, especially the state level where it's more important, is that services of this kind are receiving less funding. It's fine when people clamor for more attention to this because it's true that it's extremely important but it's undeniable that without proper funding and a commitment to do the right thing from both sides of any political aisle, it rarely becomes more than words.

There are also serious concerns about how privacy would work with regard to this as well. Are you giving up privacy rights with regard to doctor/patient confidentiality if you visit a therapist for some reason and there's a law somewhere on the books that all-of-a-sudden suggests that you now need to be watched?

i believe, in regards to your second paragraph, that there already is. A therapist must inform authorities if they believe you are a threat to others. Problem is, this doesnt seem to get used much, and those that would get recognised arnt getting any help.

[semaphore]

I should also note that the proposed bill would have allowed a psychiatrist, who wants to have you committed to his institution, forcibly get you committed by saying "I think this person is a danger!" Regardless of whether any other professional agrees.

Totally no conflict of interest and potential for abuse there.

---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 08:16 AM ----------

i believe, in regards to your second paragraph, that there already is. A therapist must inform authorities if they believe you are a threat to others. Problem is, this doesnt seem to get used much, and those that would get recognised arnt getting any help.

Or it's because it's hard to recognise the signs until after the fact. You guys do realise that most mentally ill people don't go on shooting sprees?

[Vyxn]

Yeah no. When has the ACLU ever been "screaming for gun bans"? So much for not another ban gun thread, this is just a thinly veiled attempt at attacking your perceived opponents.



---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 07:59 AM ----------




How does regulating gun ownership violate your right?

Moreover, it is hypocritical of you to say they should be locked for being "possibly be a threat" yet you completely ignore that guns are also "possibly be a threat". The correct approach is to apply reasonable steps to minimise the risk, not to grandstand about rights being violated.

That is the official stance of the ACLU but the members of the ACLU are mostly liberals and we are know what there personal stance is

you just want to ban the tool of the violence more so then preventing the violence to start with

would you rather prevent a disease from ever happening or just treat the symptoms of that diseases

And i was only reply to your post on gun bans i wasn't the one other then my initial point in my first post who interjected it back into the discussion

you still didn't answer my question why is it fine to take away one persons right but not another for the publics safety other then to push a certain political agenda

[MoanaLisa]

i believe, in regards to your second paragraph, that there already is. A therapist must inform authorities if they believe you are a threat to others. Problem is, this doesnt seem to get used much, and those that would get recognised arnt getting any help.

My concern was actually much more general. Generally, the conversation I've seen on TV about this over the last few days implied a form of profiling based on mental histories. That suggests to me a much more invasive reach into people's private lives based on platitudes about public safety. If you're male, of a certain age and have symptoms X, Y, or Z or have been diagnosed with A, B or C, the implication is that you should be on a list somewhere. If you're female apparently, you're fine because females haven't engaged in this at all in the U.S.

That's only a slight stretch of the sort of thing I've been hearing 'experts' say on cable news channels. Anyway, you look at it, it's profiling and that's a very slippery and dangerous slope.

[semaphore]

That is the official stance of the ACLU but the members of the ACLU are mostly liberals and we are know what there personal stance is

We all know what you would like to pretend it is. Stop strawmaning. Most of us don't want to ban guns.

you still didn't answer my question why is it fine to take away one persons right but not another for the publics safety other then to push a certain political agenda

Actually I did. You're just pretending not to see it in order to hold on to your strawman.

[Crissi]

I should also note that the proposed bill would have allowed a psychiatrist, who wants to have you committed to his institution, forcibly get you committed by saying "I think this person is a danger!" Regardless of whether any other professional agrees.

Totally no conflict of interest and potential for abuse there.

---------- Post added 2012-12-17 at 08:16 AM ----------



Or it's because it's hard to recognise the signs until after the fact. You guys do realise that most mentally ill people don't go on shooting sprees?

As someone who has issues myself, I know this well. However, there should always be support available to anyone, and i think people that feel like no one is there to help resort to drastic measures. It just seems that if it isnt the mentla health flavor of the week, it gets pushed under the rug