Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[FusedMass]

I keep trying to sleep and one more thing pops up. Okay here is a VERY interesting article. According to this US accounts for 40 percents of the world exports in guns. The UN is drafting something to help keep gun exports under control. Since congress is unwilling to stand up to the NRA. It seems the US has a chance to support this treaty or not.

U.N. approves new debate on arms treaty opposed by U.S. gun lobby

http://news.yahoo.com/u-n-approves-d...021426613.html

[Dillon]

I keep trying to sleep and one more thing pops up. Okay here is a VERY interesting article. According to this US accounts for 40 percents of the world exports in guns. The UN is drafting something to help keep gun exports under control. Since congress is unwilling to stand up to the NRA. It seems the US has a chance to support this treaty or not.

U.N. approves new debate on arms treaty opposed by U.S. gun lobby

http://news.yahoo.com/u-n-approves-d...021426613.html

A couple things.

First, your post insinuating "disturbing" similarities between Timothy McVeigh and Seran is a new low, I think. Personally I think it shows you feel that you are losing the debate (lol if you can call it that).

Second, you mentioned a police officer being shot, the school shooting and the theater shooting. Might I mention the latter two were in gun free zones. How is defense against an insane gunman expected in such a place?

And third, the UN doesn't have governmental jurisdiction over the US. The treaty must be ratified as law by the congress, which already unlikely, would get shot down by the supreme court, considering they've already made a decision about the second amendment.

But, one more thing. You also said you watched Bowling for Columbine, by Michael Moore. If you're actually interested in the debate, as your presence here implies, I might suggest seeking out some opposing videos. As for me, I like Penn and Teller, and I find their Bullshit series entertaining.

Bullshit - Gun Control

[SirRobin]

Bullshit - Gun Control

Love Penn & Teller, and a good show, but I do take issue with their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

[Dillon]

Love Penn & Teller, and a good show, but I do take issue with their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

I think the clause "the right of the people" is fairly clear, considering how "the people" is used in the other parts of the Constitution. I don't see how there is any other way to interpret it.

Unless you something else by their "interpretation".

[SirRobin]

I think the clause "the right of the people" is fairly clear, considering how "the people" is used in the other parts of the Constitution. I don't see how there is any other way to interpret it.

Unless you something else by their "interpretation".

Penn & Teller separate militia and people when they are not actually separate. They are actually one in the same as shown by the early versions like "A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms." The militia is the people. The people is the militia.

Might want to note, also, that the Luby's Massacre was committed by George Hennard who legally owned both of the semiautomatic weapons he used to commit that crime. So, yes, another mass shooting committed not by hardened criminals who illegally acquired their firearms but by a legal gun owner instead. That's the tragedy that one woman lost her parents in.

Now I do agree that you can't stop insane people. What you can do is minimize their body counts by restricting their access to the kinds of firearms that let them puff up their body counts.

[Seranthor]

You are aware that the project your talking about Fast and Furious started under Bush and Obama assumed control when he took office. As far as I'm aware hes not MY President. Hes OUR President and rep the nation as such even if the Republicans did not elect him.

The way you talk sometimes. It concerns me slightly. I'll explain why. I was watching a show about the background of the Timothy McVeigh the person who bombed a building. He came back from military life and had a hard time adjusting to civil life. He had PTSD after living through that experience and in his words living on razors edge he couldn't take a normal life.

He got involved with a local gun community. Where I'm going with this. The reason he did those bombings was because he felt the goverment was trying take away his guns and his freedom. Here is is a quote from him.

If guns become outlawed. Then only outlaws will have guns.

And I will become an outlaw if guns are banned.

He was so fiercely defending HIS freedom and distrust in the government. He wanted to hurt them in a tall way. I heard the recordings how he went into details about his plans to hurt the government the most attacking a building full of people. I'm not saying your like that by ANY means. However when you say MY President and your massive distrust in the government.

It made me make the wonder slightly from you defending your guns..you're freedom as you call it. To what he did and in his mind thats why he did what he did to protect himself. To be honest. Yes I believe a ton of gun owners have a distrust in the government and I also believe some would rather have a shoot out then give up their weapons.

That to me. Is disturbing.

You are aware I hope, that you are woefully and willfully mis-informed, the information is publicly available when each operation started and ended, Sadly, you haven't bothered to check, so I'll help you. Fast and Furious did NOT start under Bush, Operation Linebacker was started under Bush, with the consent, knowledge and participation of the Mexican Government, it was ended under Bush, because it didn't work, and it caused no deaths to US law enforcement agents. the scope of Operation Linebacker was about 15% of that of Fast and Furious...

Fast and Furious was started under Obama, without consent, without knowledge, without participation of the Mexican government, it was at least 8 times larger, it resulted in multiple deaths of US agents AND the guns that still are MISSING amount to more than TWICE that of ALL the guns that were used in Operation Linebacker. Now, if you want to talk about gun running, perhaps you should impose upon AG Holder to actually give up the legally supoenad documents to the committee investigating this matter, or do you support him hiding his involvement? As far as your baseless, ill-informed assessment of what you think my mental state is, I thank you but your concern is not needed, nor, is it truly any of your business. Want to know more about my condition, get a warrant.

---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 02:54 AM ----------

On a separate note before I head to bed. I want leave some food for thought here.

A newspaper in NY has published the names of EVERYONE that owns a gun. I think the media is finally on to something. Was it illegal? no. Should it have been done? maybe not or maybe since people have a right to know about guns where they live and to protect them self.

Here is the article.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blog...opstories.html

its a violation of the gun owners right to privacy, but, given the media's bend, its not surprising in the least. As far as me, I have no problem with folks knowing what weapons I possess.

---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 03:01 AM ----------

A couple things.

First, your post insinuating "disturbing" similarities between Timothy McVeigh and Seran is a new low, I think. Personally I think it shows you feel that you are losing the debate (lol if you can call it that).

Dillon, I expect the personal attacks, it in fact highlights the willful, belligerent dishonesty of the attacker. It demonstrates to me who is incapable of rational, reasoned debate, It shows me who to avoid, and who not to give any credence to.

[Slavemaker]

I am not from US, by why wouldn't anyone support it? Like he said you don't use assault weapons to hunt deer or any other animals for that matter.

I don't know honestly, I'd support it because it makes sense to me, an alternate idea is to raise the price of ammo to insane prices, this may be entirely based off that Chris Rock joke but honestly it makes A LOT of sense.

Minor note, I like guns (visually) and if I was rich enough it would be cool to own them for display but only for display purposes, but meh I don't know.

[ugotownd]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blog...opstories.html

The media strikes again. All you antiguns wonder why so many weapons are stolen there ya go. Two counties worth of permit holders addresses. Stupid morons.

[Cthulhu 2020]

its a violation of the gun owners right to privacy, but, given the media's bend, its not surprising in the least. As far as me, I have no problem with folks knowing what weapons I possess.

Are you familiar with the Freedom of Information Act? Given that you didn't even know what the proposed gun control regulations for 2013 were, I'd have to say your answer is more than likely "no".

[Seranthor]

Are you familiar with the Freedom of Information Act? Given that you didn't even know what the proposed gun control regulations for 2013 were, I'd have to say your answer is more than likely "no".

Ignoring your attacks, Sure, I know what the Freedom of Information Act is, What they DID was legal, I never disputed that, in fact I agree that it was legal. Was it a good idea? You fucking tell me if its a good idea, you CLAIM you want the guns not to fall into the wrong hands, but then this paper publishes where the fuck they are. And your response is to attack me, I'm not surprised in the least. I suppose now that if one of those homes are burglarized and the weapons stolen and used in a crime you'll turn around and attack me or Fox News or a random NRA member, Right?

[Grizzly Willy]

Are you familiar with the Freedom of Information Act? Given that you didn't even know what the proposed gun control regulations for 2013 were, I'd have to say your answer is more than likely "no".

Yeah, it doesn't matter if what they did was legal. It's pretty fucking dumb and irresponsible of them to do it.

[FusedMass]

A couple things.

First, your post insinuating "disturbing" similarities between Timothy McVeigh and Seran is a new low, I think. Personally I think it shows you feel that you are losing the debate (lol if you can call it that).

Second, you mentioned a police officer being shot, the school shooting and the theater shooting. Might I mention the latter two were in gun free zones. How is defense against an insane gunman expected in such a place?

And third, the UN doesn't have governmental jurisdiction over the US. The treaty must be ratified as law by the congress, which already unlikely, would get shot down by the supreme court, considering they've already made a decision about the second amendment.

But, one more thing. You also said you watched Bowling for Columbine, by Michael Moore. If you're actually interested in the debate, as your presence here implies, I might suggest seeking out some opposing videos. As for me, I like Penn and Teller, and I find their Bullshit series entertaining.

Bullshit - Gun Control

I find it very interesting. A person with an avatar mocking Obama in a hat with a beard might think I did something to create a new low. To be a hundred percent sincere Timmy McVeigh actually that did happen. You can Google the local listing for that program that was on last night. It was a two hour espoide about his entire life with recording that he did that explained WHY he did what he did and what went through his mind. Nothing I said about him was made up and I hardly think I'm losing the debate.

People are being murdered last night. Two Firemen and One Police Officer. 20 Children were murdered a few weeks ago. And Obama has promised to push new bills into congress with help of Joe Biden. I hardly think I'm losing anything. I simply repeated what I saw on TV. Just because it did not favor your argument doesn't fit the bill that I see myself as losing.

You do understand regardless of their name. Bush did the exact same thing Obama did. He traced the guns. He started the operation. True Obama had the name changed but it was the exact same operation.

[Wildtree]

Who would have thought........... Israel chimes in. Well, they got dragged into it, and set the record straight, essentially calling BS on LaPierre and expose him as a liar.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-...schools-claim/

---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 08:22 AM ----------

its a violation of the gun owners right to privacy, but, given the media's bend, its not surprising in the least.

Seran, I believe you are wrong on the first part....

All of the names and addresses were compiled through public records.

On the second part I totally agree. Back to the first part. I could never (and never will) understand how lose the handling of privacy is, here in the USA.
I gladly admit, that privacy was one argument for me to move to the US, back then. The internet wasn't what it is nowadays. So I had no chance to check on that topic fairly easy. I always thought we Germans are "glass people" where the govt. knows everything. Here in the US it doesn't know everything, so I thought....
That isn't the case, since it knows a lot more about us than one would imagine. The shocking difference however is. Over there at least only the govt knows. Public records somehow don't even exist. And the ones that do, aren't published and accessible through govt. websites for everyone.
Hell even with a crime at hand it's illegal to spell out a persons last name in the newspapers, no matter criminal or victim. That's so damaging....
If I was you, I'd be actually concerned having my name and address printed out somewhere. Any mental nutcase who has a thing against you can come after you easily.

[SirRobin]

So, as Penn & Teller's own "Bullshit" highlights. Not only are some misreading the 2nd Amendment, by separating militia and people. Some gun owners keep pretending that they are the solution. While that may help them feel good about themselves. Since these mass shootings are being committed by legal gun owners or their firearms? They are not, actually, the solution. They are, in fact, the problem. La Bang Bang Pierre can ignorantly rant all he wants, it won't change it.

For anyone else who watched the video... Did you notice how "secure" gun lady's firearms were? Or were not, in this case. All it takes is a moment of her paying more attention to the semiautomatic in her "rack," for a wacko to pick up one of the other firearms, kill her with her own guns, or just walk off, and use them to go on a killing spree... Again.

[Seranthor]

You do understand regardless of their name. Bush did the exact same thing Obama did. He traced the guns. He started the operation. True Obama had the name changed but it was the exact same operation.

What I understand is Bush had the permission and the cooperation of the Mexican government, Obama did not. Additionally, I dont give a rats ass how you attempt to spin it, Bush ended their operation when they realized it wasn't working. What possessed the current administration to attempt it again, but this time without giving a flying fuck what the authorities in Mexico thought, they did it again, this time on a far grander scale.

---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 10:15 AM ----------

Who would have thought........... Israel chimes in. Well, they got dragged into it, and set the record straight, essentially calling BS on LaPierre and expose him as a liar.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-...schools-claim/

---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 08:22 AM ----------

Seran, I believe you are wrong on the first part....

On the second part I totally agree. Back to the first part. I could never (and never will) understand how lose the handling of privacy is, here in the USA.
I gladly admit, that privacy was one argument for me to move to the US, back then. The internet wasn't what it is nowadays. So I had no chance to check on that topic fairly easy. I always thought we Germans are "glass people" where the govt. knows everything. Here in the US it doesn't know everything, so I thought....
That isn't the case, since it knows a lot more about us than one would imagine. The shocking difference however is. Over there at least only the govt knows. Public records somehow don't even exist. And the ones that do, aren't published and accessible through govt. websites for everyone.
Hell even with a crime at hand it's illegal to spell out a persons last name in the newspapers, no matter criminal or victim. That's so damaging....
If I was you, I'd be actually concerned having my name and address printed out somewhere. Any mental nutcase who has a thing against you can come after you easily.

Truthfully, they can publish mine if they so chose, however, the news media where I live, (print, radio, TV) are responsible and wouldn't recklessly endanger anyone.

[GreatOak]

So, as Penn & Teller's own "Bullshit" highlights. Not only are some misreading the 2nd Amendment, by separating militia and people. Some gun owners keep pretending that they are the solution. While that may help them feel good about themselves. Since these mass shootings are being committed by legal gun owners or their firearms? They are not, actually, the solution. They are, in fact, the problem. La Bang Bang Pierre can ignorantly rant all he wants, it won't change it.

For anyone else who watched the video... Did you notice how "secure" gun lady's firearms were? Or were not, in this case. All it takes is a moment of her paying more attention to the semiautomatic in her "rack," for a wacko to pick up one of the other firearms, kill her with her own guns, or just walk off, and use them to go on a killing spree... Again.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you implying that there is no individual right to bear arms? That's pretty fringe if so, as it goes against tradition, the supreme court, nearly all the founders, and even Obama.
Even Adam Winkler agrees that there is an individual right to bear arms, and supporting the militia (the people armed as a whole) is only a part of it.

Besides, Assault Weapons are protected under common use, since they are commonly owned and aren't significantly different from established semi-automatic hunting rifles. The Heller case basically said you can have anything that isn't banned NOW or more powerful than a grenade. So you can't have bazookas and shit.

---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 04:35 PM ----------

This video is pretty funny


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e4a_1356427047

---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 04:42 PM ----------

Penn & Teller separate militia and people when they are not actually separate. They are actually one in the same as shown by the early versions like "A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms." The militia is the people. The people is the militia.

Might want to note, also, that the Luby's Massacre was committed by George Hennard who legally owned both of the semiautomatic weapons he used to commit that crime. So, yes, another mass shooting committed not by hardened criminals who illegally acquired their firearms but by a legal gun owner instead. That's the tragedy that one woman lost her parents in.

Now I do agree that you can't stop insane people. What you can do is minimize their body counts by restricting their access to the kinds of firearms that let them puff up their body counts.

You do realize the vast majority of weapons in this country are semi-automatic? You can't really use that term to scare people.

[SirRobin]

I'm not sure I follow. Are you implying that there is no individual right to bear arms? That's pretty fringe if so, as it goes against tradition, the supreme court, nearly all the founders, and even Obama.
Even Adam Winkler agrees that there is an individual right to bear arms, and supporting the militia (the people armed as a whole) is only a part of it.

Besides, Assault Weapons are protected under common use, since they are commonly owned and aren't significantly different from established semi-automatic hunting rifles. The Heller case basically said you can have anything that isn't banned NOW or more powerful than a grenade. So you can't have bazookas and shit.

No I'm not saying that there is no right to bear arms. What I am showing is that "well regulated" applies to "people" as well. Nor can the Supreme Court, interpreters of the Constitution, not revisit an issue. The court itself has outlined what could cause it to overrule its previous decisions. If I recall correctly, there was thinking, at the time, that "well regulated" covered "arming" as well. Plus, while "assault weapons" may be the hot button right now. We need to look at the kinds of firearms which let gun owners, or those they let take their weapons, puff up their mass shooting body counts.

This video is pretty funny


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e4a_1356427047

I'll look at it in a bit. Time to make the family rounds.

[FusedMass]

What I understand is Bush had the permission and the cooperation of the Mexican government, Obama did not. Additionally, I dont give a rats ass how you attempt to spin it, Bush ended their operation when they realized it wasn't working. What possessed the current administration to attempt it again, but this time without giving a flying fuck what the authorities in Mexico thought, they did it again, this time on a far grander scale.[COLOR="red"]

You do realize that Mexico is very corrupt with maybe hundreds of police officers involved with the drug cartel. They are attacking their own police officers in daylight with no punishment. Its so bad that corrupt cartels actually control entire towns where the military wont even go and openly admit the cartels control that part of town. Now why would anyone go to the President and ask permission to do an uncover mission to track the guns to some of the biggest cartels in the business.

[Littleraven]

I am not from US, by why wouldn't anyone support it? Like he said you don't use assault weapons to hunt deer or any other animals for that matter.

100% this right here. i challenge someone to give me a legit reason that your average joe blow from down the street should be able to go and buy any kind of military grade assault weapon. other than killing other people there is no reason to have them.

also inb4 criminals will still find a way to get them blah blah blah. yeah thats the case with everything.

[Grizzly Willy]

100% this right here. i challenge someone to give me a legit reason that your average joe blow from down the street should be able to go and buy any kind of military grade assault weapon. other than killing other people there is no reason to have them.

also inb4 criminals will still find a way to get them blah blah blah. yeah thats the case with everything.

I may be wrong, but I don't think civilians have access to, or allowed to legally obtain, military grade weaponry in the first place.