Who's more "evil" as of now: Orcs or the Forsaken?

[Justignoreme]

Fine, I didn't know this.

Doesn't discount that the Blood Elves' only crime was surviving.

No their crime was working with Naga. A vague and convenient crime yes. Again, this doesn't rationally warrant blood elves hatred for all humans and the alliance at large at all. their hatred is entirely unfounded, irrational and obtuse. You'd think Garithos was the one responsible for the Dead Scar...

Sure was when they tried to return home to their friends and family only to be chased away. http://www.wowpedia.org/Dan_Golthas

"When I clawed my way out of the grave, I thought my family would welcome me with open arms. Instead, they drove me out of the village, screaming in a language I could no longer understand."

"So the first thing I did was return with my fellow Forsaken, kill them all and eat their corpses". Ya, they were given one hell of a tough break, but they opted to channel that into hate filled vengeance and seek the deaths of everyone who ever "wronged them" be it the Scourge that slayed and raised them or the family that shunned them, equally hated.

Because they didn't?

humans betrayed and murdered by forsaken, after putting aside their fear and trusting them... you'd think the ones who actually did trust them, even temporarily, would be the ones you didn't want to kill. Didn't stop her.

Without her, they would all be exterminated by an Alliance invasion.

If you want to think that, go right ahead.

Everything she did was to kill Arthas. But you claim, she would betray everyone anyway once this task was complete. "They would've killed them either way. Why? Because that's what they do..." Tell me again how this is in any way accurate?

First, you misunderstood what I said. Sylvanas didn't care about the Forsaken prior to the Valkyr. I'm not convinced of her bsing about caring for them now. Fortifying Lordaeron means fortifying herself with a nation willing to sacrifice themselves for her. Garrosh was quite right about her: Sylvanas is a clever bitch. She's knows whats in store for her when she runs out of Valkyr and has an entire nation between herself and that day. Now with respect to my quote. Yes, she would've killed the humans even if they all went along with her plan. Why? Because she killed the few that DID go along with her plan... the ones that set aside their mistrust to fight united, even if briefly... So once more, tell me, why did THEY die when THEY worked with them?

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 05:59 AM ----------

You do have a good point that they shouldn't have blindly trusted the Forsaken. The problem is that many Humans didn't even give them a chance to prove themselves and just assumed the worst. Despite the Forsaken saving their lives, fighting against the Scourge, and not being mindless zombies like the rest of the Scourge?

They did though. Garithos and others stayed on. Only a portion of the human force left. not all of it. And what happened to them? They were murdered...

Only because Garithos betrayed them, leaving them with no other allies.

He didn't betray them.

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 06:06 AM ----------

I should also point out, since its relevant, everyone's Death Knight starts off in a manner similar to the Forsaken at large. Members of the Scourge, hated, feared and loathed. They are freed of the Lich King's control but still reviled and not trusted at all. Now for expedience, all you have to do is go to Varian or Thrall/Garrosh with a letter signed by Tirion and reputation changes. Not so simple with the Forsaken, but the point is they could've proven they weren't bad and that humans were idiots to mistrust them. Humans never attacked them outright. Instead they opted to say "ya we're everything bad you thought us to be" and went on to develop forsaken plague to blight vast tracts of land, raise dead humans, turn non-humans into abominations and all that other nice crap the Scourge did...

there's a reason Forsaken used to start off as *neutral* with the Horde...

[Skytotem]

You do have a good point that they shouldn't have blindly trusted the Forsaken. The problem is that many Humans didn't even give them a chance to prove themselves and just assumed the worst. Despite the Forsaken saving their lives, fighting against the Scourge, and not being mindless zombies like the rest of the Scourge.

Where did this happen?

[Haven]

they didn't though, he appointed himself. PLease read up.

So why the hell do you consider anything that happened to him as an act against Alliance? If he's officially Alliance, then he's officially Alliance, if not, then he's not. The way I read it right now is that he's self-appointed leader, therefore all his faults are not to be attributed to the Alliance, but the fact that Sylvanas took action against him is considered a direct assault on the Alliance. Double standarts, all the way. Alliance are masters at dodging responsibility.

And saying "thanks, c ya, we want nothing to do with you" equates to "We fucking HATE you undead all of you die(again)!"

Yeah, imagine what Night Elves would say if someone, for example, humans, after having defeated Archimonde, said, "ok, с ya, GTFO of Hyjal, we want nothing to do with you". Garithos "thanked" the Forsaken for his liberation and for conquering the Undercity by attempting to chase them off their land. But yes, it's a fair deal, because they are filthy undead - that's how you see it. You deny the Forsaken credit for anything good they have ever done or achieved, just as anyone in the Alliance. No wonder the Forsaken hate the Alliance.

[Aquamonkey]

Where did this happen?

WC3. Sylvanas liberated Garithos and his men from mind control. They fought the Scourge together and assaulted Lordaeron.

Garithos' advisers didn't want him to ally with Sylvanas. When he did anyway, some deserted.

[Skytotem]

WC3. Sylvanas liberated Garithos and his men from mind control. They fought the Scourge together and assaulted Lordaeron.

Garithos' advisers didn't want him to ally with Sylvanas. When he did anyway, some deserted.

Okay but that was all very well founded because the Forsaken betrayed them anyway. This was not based on 'oh they're inhuman and icky' it was based on 'these are some very untrustworthy individuals'.

The agreement was

1. Kill the dreadlord

2. Garithos gets the city.

Sylvanas killed Garithos and his men the minute the city was taken.

There was no time for the Forsaken to prove the humans wrong because they pretty much murdered all the humans for garithos calling them names.

[Haven]

No their crime was working with Naga. A vague and convenient crime yes. Again, this doesn't rationally warrant blood elves hatred for all humans and the alliance at large at all. their hatred is entirely unfounded, irrational and obtuse. You'd think Garithos was the one responsible for the Dead Scar...

So sending a platoon to a certain death is okay, but having them accept unexpected aid makes them traitors... Yeah. How dare they survive.

[Florena]

Where the hell do they betray the humans?


No, they got thrown into the prison because they were non-Humans.
Accepting Naga-aid to survive the suicide missions they were sent on is just a nice excuse.

Garithos didn't imprison the Dwarves nor would he execute them.

Sylvannas betrayed Garithos at the end of Frozen Throne. Granted, the guy had it coming from how he treated the blood elves, but still.

[Haven]

Okay but that was all very well founded because the Forsaken betrayed them anyway. This was not based on 'oh they're inhuman and icky' it was based on 'these are some very untrustworthy individuals'.

The agreement was

1. Kill the dreadlord

2. Garithos gets the city.

Sylvanas killed Garithos and his men the minute the city was taken.

There was no time for the Forsaken to prove the humans wrong because they pretty much murdered all the humans for garithos calling them names.

Then again, how is such a deal fair in any possible way? Doing all the job, getting no credit for it and being forced to go away lest thу Alliance turns on them - is this fair? Well, from the perspective of the Master Race, yes. From the perspective of the Forsaken, no. But would Garithos consider other options (which would imply using humility and some justice)? No. Therefore, Sylvanas deceived him, used him, and got rid of him. That was the most logical course of action.

[Justignoreme]

So why the hell do you consider anything that happened to him as an act against Alliance? If he's officially Alliance, then he's officially Alliance, if not, then he's not.

The real question is why are Blood Elves blaming the Alliance and humanity for his actions, to the point of hatred? Again I said betrayed humans not the Alliance. That comes afterwards.

The way I read it right now is that he's self-appointed leader, therefore all his faults are not to be attributed to the Alliance, but the fact that Sylvanas took action against him is considered a direct assault on the Alliance. Double standarts, all the way. Alliance are masters at dodging responsibility.

no we own up to our mistakes, you horde types pretend you never did a fucking thing wrong and it's really annoying reading that bullshit rubbish over and over again. He was a self-appointed leader of the remaining Alliance forces in Lordaeron. He was a bastard. Despite being a bastard he worked with the Forsaken, and they murdered him.

Yeah, imagine what Night Elves would say if someone, for example, humans, after having defeated Archimonde, said, "ok, с ya, GTFO of Hyjal, we want nothing to do with you". Garithos "thanked" the Forsaken for his liberation and for conquering the Undercity by attempting to chase them off their land.

wtf are you talking about? He didn't have anyone to invade Lordaeron or Undercity and at that time it was completely a chaotic mess. And as for your Night Elf example, if that happened it'd make a little bit more sense for Orcish aggression to continue, but the Horde thanked the Night Elves, whom gave up their Immortality which effectively meant each and every one of them gave their lives, to save the world, with continued aggression, and bloodshed, which boiled over when garrosh took power. All the humans did was say "we're going now, bye" to the Forsaken... But that justifies hating them all?

But yes, it's a fair deal, because they are filthy undead - that's how you see it. You deny the Forsaken credit for anything good they have ever done or achieved, just as anyone in the Alliance. No wonder the Forsaken hate the Alliance.

Tell me one good thing the Forsaken have actually done, as a nation, to benefit even the HORDE much more the world? Everything has been for themselves, specifically for Sylvanas to keep her bitch ass alive when she needs to be burning in hell for an eternity right next to Arthas. It's just fun calling you horde fans out on your crap. You pretend the Horde exists because of Alliance, Alliance is all bigoted blah blah blah, when the story is presented to you without your echo chamber of bullshit you just keep repeating your "dogma". It'd be better if you just accepted the FLAWS of the Forsaken and stop trying to justify them...

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 06:31 AM ----------

Then again, how is such a deal fair in any possible way? Doing all the job, getting no credit for it and being forced to go away lest thу Alliance turns on them - is this fair? Well, from the perspective of the Master Race, yes. From the perspective of the Forsaken, no. But would Garithos consider other options (which would imply using humility and some justice)? No. Therefore, Sylvanas deceived him, used him, and got rid of him. That was the most logical course of action.

So it was okay to betray humans, and use them. And yet when humans suspect thats all the Forsaken are about, they are the ones at fault? Does ANYONE ever think here?

[Alvito]

Clearly a DK orc wins.

[Aquamonkey]

Okay but that was all very well founded because the Forsaken betrayed them anyway. This was not based on 'oh they're inhuman and icky' it was based on 'these are some very untrustworthy individuals'.

The agreement was

1. Kill the dreadlord

2. Garithos gets the city.

Sylvanas killed Garithos and his men the minute the city was taken.

There was no time for the Forsaken to prove the humans wrong because they pretty much murdered all the humans for garithos calling them names.

After Sylvanas betrayed them at Lordaeron, yes they have very solid proof that she's untrustworthy. Before that, they had no substantive reason to believe the Forsaken were untrustworthy. Their first encounter was the Forsaken saving their lives.

[yetgdhfgh]

The Forsaken will always be the most 'Evil'

Manly cause the only emotion they feel is hate and vengeance

They care nothing for the living, they care nothing for the horde.

[Justignoreme]

in the Quest for Pandaria story, a racist human ship captain tries to kill a Night Elf druid for refusing his ridiculous orders and taking a stand against his treachery when he went to imprison a tauren druid sent as an emissary. He ran her through with his sword and ultimately had his throat slit by the Night Elf's best friend (another Night Elf, rogue). If they were Forsaken instead of Night Elf, they would want every last human slaughtered, want Stormwind to burn, and the Alliance to be destroyed for this event. But they aren't demented, self-aggrandising lunatics like the Forsaken and Blood Elves. The single problem was dealt with singly, with witnesses attesting to the captains madness. Forsaken are pure vengeance and little more. Get over it.

[Aquamonkey]

No their crime was working with Naga. A vague and convenient crime yes. Again, this doesn't rationally warrant blood elves hatred for all humans and the alliance at large at all. their hatred is entirely unfounded, irrational and obtuse. You'd think Garithos was the one responsible for the Dead Scar...

Yet, nobody stood up to Garithos. The Kirin Tor twiddled their thumbs while the Blood Elves were unjustly held prisoner in the Violet Hold.

"So the first thing I did was return with my fellow Forsaken, kill them all and eat their corpses". Ya, they were given one hell of a tough break, but they opted to channel that into hate filled vengeance and seek the deaths of everyone who ever "wronged them" be it the Scourge that slayed and raised them or the family that shunned them, equally hated.

I'm just saying the Forsaken didn't start off hating the humans.

humans betrayed and murdered by forsaken, after putting aside their fear and trusting them... you'd think the ones who actually did trust them, even temporarily, would be the ones you didn't want to kill. Didn't stop her.

She didn't do it out of malice towards them. She only had hatred for Arthas, everyone else were just "arrows in her quiver". A term she coined in reference to Garithos and his men.

If you want to think that, go right ahead.

I will, because it's in the lore.

Sylvanas Windrunner: Edge of Night

The capital was suddenly under siege. King Wrynn stood beyond the burning remains of the zeppelin tower, drawing diagrams of the Undercity for his generals. He had stormed the city before; he was confident of victory.

Within the city walls, bonfires raged. Sylvanas seethed; the Alliance was already burning the corpses. No. Wait. She tried to make sense out of the clouded vision. The few Forsaken who remain are throwing themselves into the bonfires, she realized, rather than facing their executioners.

First, you misunderstood what I said. Sylvanas didn't care about the Forsaken prior to the Valkyr. I'm not convinced of her bsing about caring for them now.

She is having an existential crisis. Without the LK, she has no purpose. She committed suicide. In addition to freeing her from eternal torment, the Val'kyr offered her kinship. I'm not saying that her personality instantly flipped to the other extreme. Sylvanas isn't all sunshine and rainbows, but feeling any kind of empathy is a dramatic development for her character when she has only felt a remorseless vengeance since her break from the LK's control.

It is wishful thinking that she would continue down this path of empathy and extend it towards the Forsaken and the Scourge still under Bolvar's control. It would lead to her redemption and validate the Tauren's reason for endorsing their entrance into the Horde. However, she could very easily be corrupted by her new-found power over life and death and revert to her old psychopathic self.

The key thing is that for the first time, in a long time, "her spirit [is] once again feeling whole."

Fortifying Lordaeron means fortifying herself with a nation willing to sacrifice themselves for her. Garrosh was quite right about her: Sylvanas is a clever bitch. She's knows whats in store for her when she runs out of Valkyr and has an entire nation between herself and that day. Now with respect to my quote. Yes, she would've killed the humans even if they all went along with her plan. Why? Because she killed the few that DID go along with her plan... the ones that set aside their mistrust to fight united, even if briefly... So once more, tell me, why did THEY die when THEY worked with them?

Because it was part of her plan. They were just "arrows in her quiver". She didn't kill them because she hated them or mistrusted them. I know I said something to that effect earlier, but I was speculating incorrectly. She probably formulated the plan to betray them when she first met them.

If it had suited her interests to keep Garithos and his forces alive, she would have. She held no malice towards them.

They did though. Garithos and others stayed on. Only a portion of the human force left. not all of it. And what happened to them? They were murdered...

Yes. I know. Their trust was misplaced. But they had no substantial proof to suspect that she would betray them.

He didn't betray them.

Sending them on suicide missions hoping they would die isn't betrayal?

[Justignoreme]

So sending a platoon to a certain death is okay, but having them accept unexpected aid makes them traitors... Yeah. How dare they survive.

Finding more justifications for ridiculous insanity? Let's go with a recent and better example.

Druids of the Flame.

Evil?

They fit all the criteria for the forsaken.

Wronged immensely by an enemy.
Homes, families, lives destroyed to the point where they don't care if the whole world burns.
Consumed with vengeance against those whom don't suffer like they do.
Blame those they trusted to protect and defend them as just as responsible for their condition as the Horde itself.
Gave in and threw everything to the wind, became embodiments of vengeance.

Are they justified? Is it okay for them to feel the way they do? Remember it was not Ragnaros that made Druids of the Flame, they sought him when they felt they had nothing left to live for or lose.

While I can understand where they are coming from (just like the Forsaken), their approach was ultimately destructive.

[Aquamonkey]

in the Quest for Pandaria story, a racist human ship captain tries to kill a Night Elf druid for refusing his ridiculous orders and taking a stand against his treachery when he went to imprison a tauren druid sent as an emissary. He ran her through with his sword and ultimately had his throat slit by the Night Elf's best friend (another Night Elf, rogue). If they were Forsaken instead of Night Elf, they would want every last human slaughtered, want Stormwind to burn, and the Alliance to be destroyed for this event. But they aren't demented, self-aggrandising lunatics like the Forsaken and Blood Elves. The single problem was dealt with singly, with witnesses attesting to the captains madness. Forsaken are pure vengeance and little more. Get over it.

Sylvanas only has pure vengeance for Arthas. Everyone else she killed were just fodder in her revenge plan against Arthas. The Forsaken do what Sylvanas tells them because they worship her for liberating them. Also, they have nowhere else to go since they were forsaken by their former friends and family.

Where were these valiant people every other time the commander is an asshole? Why didn't anyone stand up to Garithos? The Blood Elves blame everyone else there because nobody stood up to his bigotry.

[Justignoreme]

[QUOTE=Aquamonkey;20234458]Yet, nobody stood up to Garithos. The Kirin Tor twiddled their thumbs while the Blood Elves were unjustly held prisoner in the Violet Hold.

I'm just saying the Forsaken didn't start off hating the humans.

rubbish

She didn't do it out of malice towards them. She only had hatred for Arthas, everyone else were just "arrows in her quiver". A term she coined in reference to Garithos and his men.

no one said she had malice. She didn't give a shit. And she still doesn't. But her people think she does. That, while not directly malicious, is underhanded bitchery

I will, because it's in the lore.

Sylvanas Windrunner: Edge of Night

That was a crafted vision the Valkyr created for her... It really has dick to do with a storyline, that never happened at all, and never would've. It's in line with Velen's vision of a second coming of the Scourge being victorious. you really think that is gona happen in WoW?

She is having an existential crisis. Without the LK, she has no purpose. She committed suicide. In addition to freeing her from eternal torment, the Val'kyr offered her kinship. I'm not saying that her personality instantly flipped to the other extreme. Sylvanas isn't all sunshine and rainbows, but feeling any kind of empathy is a dramatic development for her character when she has only felt a remorseless vengeance since her break from the LK's control.

She didn't change at all. She merely shifted her vengeance to the next thing to hate down the list. Which happened to be Gilneas and the surviving humans in Lordaeron. What's next? Orcs? Trolls? Night Elves? Death Knights? The fly that buzzed out of her mouth while she was talking and made her cough? She's not alone; her people share her mindset. Those whom DO NOT are NOT affiliated with them any more.

It is wishful thinking that she would continue down this path of empathy and extend it towards the Forsaken and the Scourge still under Bolvar's control. It would lead to her redemption and validate the Tauren's reason for endorsing their entrance into the Horde. However, she could very easily be corrupted by her new-found power over life and death and revert to her old psychopathic self. The key thing is that for the first time, in a long time, "her spirit [is] once again feeling whole."

imo the best thing for the Forsaken would come in the way of stonebinding magic. They'd never be a rotting mess ever again. This ofc would be a fundamental and earthshattering change to the playerbase; some people like being a zombie.

Because it was part of her plan. They were just "arrows in her quiver". She didn't kill them because she hated them or mistrusted them. I know I said something to that effect earlier, but I was speculating incorrectly. She probably formulated the plan to betray them when she first met them.

If it had suited her interests to keep Garithos and his forces alive, she would have. She held no malice towards them.

Yes. I know. Their trust was misplaced. But they had no substantial proof to suspect that she would betray them.

you don't NEED proof. It's not necessary. They aren't on trial for anything, this isn't a bloody circus courtroom. They had every reason not to trust her and she proved herself to be untrustworthy. Dont really give a bloody crap about her "intentions". She betrayed them and lied to them. Something the Forsaken have cemented as their modus operandi. People do NOT want to be lied to and certainly don't want to betrayed, especially with lethal consequences. The others dodged a bullet. That's how it was written, so stop making excuses and exemptions for her. They didn't trust the bitch or her merry band, and her actions validated their mistrust.

Sending them on suicide missions hoping they would die isn't betrayal?

no, it's not, sadly.

[Haven]

The real question is why are Blood Elves blaming the Alliance and humanity for his actions, to the point of hatred? Again I said betrayed humans not the Alliance. That comes afterwards.

Some humans? Then the Forsaken just used some unknown humans. Again, sort it the hell out. Official or not, Alliance or not.

no we own up to our mistakes, you horde types pretend you never did a fucking thing wrong and it's really annoying reading that bullshit rubbish over and over again. He was a self-appointed leader of the remaining Alliance forces in Lordaeron. He was a bastard. Despite being a bastard he worked with the Forsaken, and they murdered him.

They killed a bastard, and you lament him like he a martyr.

wtf are you talking about? He didn't have anyone to invade Lordaeron or Undercity and at that time it was completely a chaotic mess.

Ahem... actually, the reason Sylvanas liberated Garithos and his men (read the bolded part aloud several times to remember) was that they had poor chances of taking the Undercity alone, with dreadlords still active. Hence, they liberated Garithos and his men, and struck a deal: they go on a joined assault on Undercity, Garithos gets everything, Forsaken get nothing and GTFO if they don't want to be slain. There's no arguing that. Now, does this sound like a fair agreement? Of course it does to The Superior Faction.

And as for your Night Elf example, if that happened it'd make a little bit more sense for Orcish aggression to continue, but the Horde thanked the Night Elves, whom gave up their Immortality which effectively meant each and every one of them gave their lives, to save the world, with continued aggression, and bloodshed, which boiled over when garrosh took power. All the humans did was say "we're going now, bye" to the Forsaken... But that justifies hating them all?

Well, if you go on about orcs... saving Azeroth was not even their business. Either they help save it and get a place in it, or not. However the NE chose to side with the Alliance (like humans and dwarves never, ever cut wood). Though I believe this thing is largely dictated by game mechanics.

Tell me one good thing the Forsaken have actually done, as a nation, to benefit even the HORDE much more the world? Everything has been for themselves, specifically for Sylvanas to keep her bitch ass alive when she needs to be burning in hell for an eternity right next to Arthas. It's just fun calling you horde fans out on your crap. You pretend the Horde exists because of Alliance, Alliance is all bigoted blah blah blah, when the story is presented to you without your echo chamber of bullshit you just keep repeating your "dogma". It'd be better if you just accepted the FLAWS of the Forsaken and stop trying to justify them...

They have liberated Garithos and his men from mind slavery. They have saved the Blood Elves - Sylvanas was the one who convinced Thrall to take them into the Horde, and gave them support in Ghostlands. They have invented a cure from Lich King's zombie plague (pre-Wrath event).

So it was okay to betray humans, and use them. And yet when humans suspect thats all the Forsaken are about, they are the ones at fault? Does ANYONE ever think here?

It was okay to use and betray racist bigots, who have used and betrayed Blood Elves before.

[Justignoreme]

Sylvanas only has pure vengeance for Arthas. Everyone else she killed were just fodder in her revenge plan against Arthas. The Forsaken do what Sylvanas tells them because they worship her for liberating them. Also, they have nowhere else to go since they were forsaken by their former friends and family.

Ya, everyone else is just a useless piece of shit, fit for using so one pathetic wretch of an elf can claim her vengeance. She's killed thousands of people on that road. Thats why she has nothing but flames and an eternity of pain waiting for her when she dies...

Where were these valiant people every other time the commander is an asshole? Why didn't anyone stand up to Garithos? The Blood Elves blame everyone else there because nobody stood up to his bigotry.

Including themselves. They just took it. Mind you there barely was any one left at the time. Ultimately, how is it humanity's fault or the Alliance's fault? Kael'thas should've been a good bit stronger in combat than Garithos...

[Haven]

Finding more justifications for ridiculous insanity? Let's go with a recent and better example.

Why did you write all this and didn't answer the actual point? I repeat: is sending a platoon to a certain death okay? Does having them accept unexpected aid make them traitors?