Mists of Pandaria Asian Chinese style expansion

[Deleted]

I would like to challenge you to pinpoint which culture in Southeast Asia that the Mantid and their zone, the Dread Wastes, are based off of. As for bad stereotyping, that's been in the game for quite some time. They're called Trolls. Even the Tauren and Worgen are fairly stereotypical of Native Americans and the Victorian-era British, respectively.



I understand where you're coming from. However, there has to be some cohesion to an isolated continent which is why Pandaria is so Southeast Asian-inspired. Much as the real life cultures of that region were isolated for thousands of years in the real world and had a culture free from outside influence.

First, on the mantid and Dread Wastes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sha_Wujing
This is slightly about sha, though there's more.
In chinese, 煞 means evil spirit... but from what I understood this can also be translated as "sha". So in chinese (I understood mostly taiwanese) culture the sha are evil spirits.
Now, I gave that wiki article since we're corelating a bit with it now.
In some Chinese myths, the Underworld looks like this (WARNING, NSFW!):
http://www.amtf.cn/2006-5-18/2006518224041.htm

If you look from third picture onward, you'll see both the areas and the people start to become black-ish. This is because of the burning. People go there to burn, be remade, then burn again. So one major thing there is that it's black and a hellish zone.
Now the capital of hell,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youdu
is a chinese-like city surrounded by darkness. So a chinese like-city surrounded by blackness and pain. Does this seem similar with anything? But wait, not done on Dread Wastes. Warning, again NSFW!
http://www.china-underground.com/mag...f-chinese-hell
Now, here's a translated version, observe quotes like:

"Those who cause discords among family members of others will be hung on Iron trees."
Iron trees. The trees in Dread wastes aren't iron trees, but you can admit they are a hellish version of a tree.

So we have the following, hellish trees, a town surrounded by darkness, burning and blackness. But the sha are not hot, they don't burn stuff. Yes, this is true, but there's an instance of Hell dealing with cold, and from what I understood, that one is as dark as the rest (I could be wrong, but so I understood).

So Dread Wastes is the Hell. It could be any Hell of course... but then we have this:
" In the center of the twisted path stands the imperial palace of the mantid race, known as the Heart of Fear"
So a city in the middle of Hell, seems familiar, but not enough, I mean it could be a coincidence.
But then we have the mantids.

The mantid, I admit, has less relation to China, but there are several chinese myths about it:
"When somebody overrates himself, he is often warned: "Don't be a mantis trying to stop a chariot." The saying comes from Chinese myths dating back to the Spring and Autumn Period.

One day, the King of Qi went out for a hunting with his men. The carriages were going along, when suddenly a mantis stood in the middle of the road with its sickle-like forelegs opened. It was obvious that he was trying to fight against the carriage to hold it back. Surprised at the case, the King of Qi ordered to stop and asked what creature it was. When he was told it was called mantis, and it would go well up to bridle decisively when it was challenged.

The King sighed with exclamation at its braveness. He mused a moment and added: "It's a great pity that it is not more than an insect. If it were a man, he must be the bravest warrior in the world!" Then the King ordered his carriages turn around it to leave the mantis there standing martially.

When the persons around heard the King's words, they were well touched and determined to devote themselves to the country.

As time passed, the meaning of the phrase changed to its opposite. Now it means that someone overrates oneself and try to hold back an overwhelmingly superior force. One of my favorite Chinese myths. "

But you want mantis in chinese myths as warriors or something and I belive this is more related to the mantis martial art:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norther...martial_art%29

and with the symbolism behind the mantis:
http://www.whats-your-sign.com/anima...sm-mantis.html
" In fact, in China, the mantis has long been honored for her mindful movements."

Where else has the mantis been honored as a creature of war? In other cultures, for example muslim, it is believed the mantis makes pilgrimages to Mecca and is a form of prophet.

That said, Dread wastes is, visually, the best zone in Pandaria simply because it's slightly different then the rest... just not different enough.



Well you're right about cohesion, it has to have some cohesion, they could have simply done something similar to Scholazar, so to say a zone where pandaren never wandered because... it was underground. Maybe they found an ancient cave or something. I don't know, as I said, I just wanted a bit more options then what there are in MoP. Maybe I'm seeing it from a superficial way, but this is how I see the issue. If people like it, I'm glad they do, I just don't feel any connection to it, unlike with previous expansions.

[Punisher069]

Gangnam style and now tentacles...

Looks like you decided to just spam silliness in the thread. Clearly doing a better job in that than in discussing Asian domination in MOP with the flimsy arguments you have been pushing.

Nothing he could possibly say will ever change your mind. I guess he realized that and is just having fun.

[StationaryHawk]

I adore Pandaria. The scenery and music is amazing. But I'm not going to go around attempting to convince everyone that they should love it, or else their view is incorrect.

Because it's wrong in every way, represents laziness and lack of creativity on the devs part and it's fuck ugly.

The vast majority of Warcraft's settings are based off of settings, cultures, and mythology in our own world or other fictional stories.

[Muadiib]

I wouldn't of minded the Japanese Pandaren's that Samwise originally designed but i didn't like the change to a Chinese motif, nothing against the Chinese but it's culture doesn't interest me half as much tbh and it just reinforced the whole "it's Kungfu Panda" vibe about the whole thing (yes I know the Pandaren came first).

[Shiny212]

I adore Pandaria. The scenery and music is amazing.

The vast majority of Warcraft's settings are based off of settings, cultures, and mythology in our own world or other fictional stories.

But they are not downright copies. Warcraft has always been full of original designs, although much less so in recent years, peaking at the chinese duplicate that is MoP.

[Vargur]

I never liked it, but... this is the expansion. :\

[Punisher069]

I adore Pandaria. The scenery and music is amazing.

The vast majority of Warcraft's settings are based off of settings, cultures, and mythology in our own world or other fictional stories.

Sorry sir that logic won't work here. On topic I think Pandaria is fantastic but too small. Though I think that with every expansion. I want novel sized places! Days to travel from Stormwind to Ironforge. A week traveling across Jade Forest.

[Justignoreme]

"how is it different from anything else based on the real world", don't be stupid, not 1 expansion in WoW ever depicted actual landmarks from the real world and certainly did not dedicate its entire design to a poor cartoon parody of one select country. It's disgusting, and has nothing to do with fantasy. Shame, SHAME.

So Night Elf gates aren't based on Torii gates from Japan, their temples and stone architectures aren't based on Classical Greek designs, Blood Elf architecture with domes and spires have no inspiration from Middle Eastern architecture, Tauren teepees aren't at all based on Plains Indian teepees, Vrykul great halls have nothing to do with Scandinavia... Ignorance is bliss, init?

[Exorte]

snip.

After looking through the entire thing including the links, I still did not see any look like dreadwaste or the mantid in game or even influence.
I sure they show what Hell look like, but it is nothing like dreadwaste.
You explain the symbol of mantis, but do that have to do with mantid in game?
I seriously doubt Dreadwaste and Manid in game is inspire by the thing you just post, the link is just too weak. Many story across different culture they never met have similar themes. Consider how weak of the link between your explanation and the in game stuff, I seriously doubt it.
By the way, the original Manid art showed in Blizzcon outfit is heavy Chinese influence. Just something related and interesting.

Also how old are you? How come you understand Tawainese and not Mandarin Chinese? If that is true you are probably at least in your 60s...
By the way can you speak Japanese?

[StationaryHawk]

But they are not downright copies. Warcraft has always been full of original designs, although much less so in recent years, peaking at the chinese duplicate that is MoP.

They're as much copies as Pandaria is. I never meant to imply that Warcraft doesn't have original designs, but they take heavily from our own history and other literature. The human kingdoms are a prime example of this if anything, as they all represent European-style cultures and settings. Even the concept of orcs vs. humans isn't original.

And I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Many wonderful pieces of literature is heavily influenced by history, mythology, and other literature. I just think that the statement that Pandaria is the first downright copy is somewhat false. More condensed and covering a larger area, perhaps, but not the first.

Sorry sir that logic won't work here.

Care to explain why?

[bclumas]

But they are not downright copies. Warcraft has always been full of original designs, although much less so in recent years, peaking at the chinese duplicate that is MoP.

Let's see if we understand what you're saying... You're saying that in Classic World of Warcraft the zones were original, yes? Let me see...

Forest/Jungle: Western Plaguelands, Silverpine Forest, Elwynn Forest, Stranglethorn Vale, Hinterlands
Mountains: Dun Morogh, Searing Gorge, Burning Steppes, Redridge Mountains, Deadwind Pass, Blasted Lands
Swamp/Marshland: Wetlands, Swamp of Sorrows
Plains: Westfall, Arathi Highlands

The only area not mentioned was Eastern Plaguelands, and I'm sure it'd be possible to place that into the forest section. This is only one continent. Every single area in every zone was "modeled" after an already existing and known location to us, save Outlands which has already been discussed as the outlier. Wrath was filled with "rehashed environments". Cataclysm, too. Your argument is failing poorly.

And your statement that Mists is a "chinese duplicate" (bolded above) is outright ludicrous. Have you even been to China? Seen it on television? Used Google images? Sure, you get images like these:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lag,_China.jpg

But you also get these:

http://theivycoach.com/wp-content/up...s-in-China.jpg
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...ympics_afp.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...agoda_view.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...in,_China).jpg
http://www.worldbank.org/content/dam...ail_paper8.jpg

I also have yet to find any pictures that resemble the exact duplication of Krasarang Wilds, Townlong Steppes, Dread Wastes, and Vale of Eternal Blossom. Of course there is an Asian-centered theme in Jade Forest, Valley of Four Winds, and Kun-lai Summit, but that's three out of seven zones. 3.. out of 7. Math time!

Start --> All Programs --> Accessories --> Calculator --> 3 / 7 * 100 --> <Enter>

42.8%. Big number, eh? Especially given that the major factions have little to do with your Asian-theme. You have the Tillers, Cloud Serpent, and half of the August Celestials in your hated zones. Only one raid is in your zone and I cannot seem to find any Asian architecture similar to Mogu'shan Vaults.

I guess what I'm trying to say is.. next time before you think about talking, put your butt-plug back in place and keep yourself from expelling useless vespane gas.

[StationaryHawk]

http://theivycoach.com/wp-content/up...s-in-China.jpg
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...ympics_afp.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...agoda_view.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...in,_China).jpg
http://www.worldbank.org/content/dam...ail_paper8.jpg

For the record, while I agree with you, I'm fairly sure the argument isn't that it resembles/duplicates present-day China/Asia, but historical China/Asia.

[Kathranis]

Lots of stuff about sha and mantid

Actually, the sha are based very loosely on a concept from feng shui (Chinese geomancy).

In feng shui, sha is a negative form of chi that flows through leylines in the ground and can cause negative emotions, misfortune, and even illness. It moves in rigid, straight lines and is attracted to manmade structures.

Blizzard confirmed this during their art panel at Blizzcon 2011.

"The sha was influenced by their studies about feng shui, so they ended up going with it. The sha could possess pandas, they could become bosses--it grew as they researched."
- http://www.wowhead.com/news=196626/b...-wow-art-panel

Visually, I think the sha are simply based on the concept of yin and yang. Just about anything sha-touched, including the sha themselves, are covered in swirls of white and black.



Although the mantis has some Chinese symbolism, there really isn't very much. The mantid are moreso an extension of the existing aqir mythology in Warcraft. The mantid are related to the qiraji and nerubians and similarily worship an Old God.

[Nekrus]

None of us knows what goes on inside the company in terms of decision making on expansion lore and theme and specifically what happened in regards to MOP.

And yet you like to make claims about how he isn't involved. Lets all ride along on that train called hypocrisy.

[Exorte]

None of us knows what goes on inside the company in terms of decision making on expansion lore and theme and specifically what happened in regards to MOP.

Said by the guy the kept making claims about what is going inside blizzard.
The sweet irony.

[Kathranis]

Again, night elves, dwarves and such share a common universe before Warcraft. Pandas don't.

I don't know how many ways I can say this...

Ther were no elves, dwarves, gnomes, trolls, or ogres before Warcraft II. In the original Warcraft: Orcs & Humans, the only two races on Azeroth were orcs and humans.

There were no night elves, tauren, naga, murlocs, satyr, tuskarr, Kalimdor, Northrend, Burning Legion, etc. before Warcraft III. They simply did not exist in the Warcraft universe until Warcraft III was released.

Compared to them, at least there have been pandaren in the Warcraft universe before Mists of Pandaria. They were in Warcraft III, and have been mentioned in World of Warcraft, and appeared in the card game and official artwork and toys, among other things.



And, for the record, China is nearly 4 million square miles. It has mountains, deserts, swamps, forests, jungles, plains, rivers, coastlines, tundra -- pretty much any type of environment you can imagine.

Mists of Pandaria has a bamboo forest, which can be found all over Asia, though they can also be found in the Americas. In fact, the giant panda's closest living relative, the spectacled bear, lives in South America and also eats bamboo.

MoP has some grasslands, which resemble the same sort of grasslands you can find all over the world.

It has a jungle, which actually more closely resembles Vietnam or Cambodia, particularily with all the ruined temples.

It has some steppe plains, which do strongly resemble the Mongolian plain and the Siberian tundra, though again this kind of environment can be found all over the world. Borean Tundra was also inspired by steppe plains and tundra.

It has some mountains, which are inspired by the Himalayas, which span Pakistan, India, Nepal, Bhutan, and China. Pandaria's only really strong reference to a real location is Mount Neverest, obviously named after Mount Everest, which is actually on the border of China and Nepal.

The Vale of Eternal Blossoms doesn't really look like any place on Earth. It looks more like Eversong Woods than anywhere in China.

Townlong and Dread Wastes also don't really look like any real locations, and in fact lean more towards high fantasy, like the zones of Outland.

The Isle of Giants resembles Un'goro Crater and Sholazar Basin.

The Isle of Thunder is sort of a marsh/jungle, but resembles Northrend's Zul'drak more than anything in China.

[Adam Jensen]

Well that's maybe because u are an asian?

I'm not asian. I like the theme.

Why is the asian theme any worse than the european theme of stormwind or the native american theme of thunderbluff?

[nightfalls]

And not enough, they had to base the ENTIRE expansion on this shitty race and their treehugging ridiculous philosophy, advocating peace and casually throwing shitty comic relief all over the game like pixie dust.

So lets all be friends and when we meet our enemies on the field of battle just say sup brah like Metzen suggested. Might aswell remove "death" from WoW, insert fainting.

Have you actually played the expansion at all?

[FiftyDKPMinus]

@ Constellation

The Alliance didn't go to Pandaria to pillage it. And despite Garrosh's intentions, when Nazgrim landed in Pandaria with his Horde forces, they had no intention of pillaging the continent either

Not originally no, but the Sha is a powerful foe, i.e. the Horde on the outside of Paw-don village(?) were easily corrupted and kidnapped the villager's children. Both sides can be easily corrupted by outside forces, as shown in previous expansions with the Cult of the Damned and The Twilight Cultists. (Don't know if the plunging of ruins by Garrosh's belves in the search of the Divine Bell could count at pillaging Mogu ruins, but idk).

The fighting could've easily escalated to total war on Pandaria, both sides've shown they possess rather powerful firepower, and Pandaria itself really doesn't have a lot of conventional defense beyond their wall, as stated by even the Shado-Pan.

@ Venziir

Oh it's not that I disagree, because I don't, but I also think that Stoneplow's "true" role was to show that not every member of the Alliance and Horde is interested in bloodshed and mayhem. But yes, I agree that we should start fighting in other zones too, but perhaps that'll happen in 5.3? What really puzzled me though, was that the Horde only deployed Orcs and Blood Elves, and that neither the Huijin or Kushui (I can never remember the name of the Alliance pandaren) weren't send to Pandaria either to help, or the fact that the Pandaren allies from Kun-Lai weren't deployed either. That seemed strange and annoying to me.

I can't answer that really, although the Alliance've deployed nearly every race they had, except for the Pandaren and Worgen in force. I can't speak for the Horde, as he hasn't reached that point yet, but I guess it could be that there might've not been a lot of Pandaren that were from the island, and they were mostly still aspiring trainees, so I guess they'll be trained up and ready when the time is right for Blizzard.

P.s. It's Tushui, almost right!

[Adam Jensen]

Have you actually played the expansion at all?

Clearly not, given the amount of violence on Pandaria and how much this "treehugging" race has to fight to survive against the Mantid, the Mogu and the Sha. Just because they're a peaceful race doesn't mean they don't do war. It means they prefer peace and avoid war unless necessary.

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 06:56 PM ----------

Because it's wrong in every way, represents laziness and lack of creativity on the devs part and it's fuck ugly.

Right, and Stormwind is so original. Never seen a city like it in every single fantasy story that ever existed.