Harder Content = Better?

[wow2011]

Because they abandoned that design. I mean, isn't this pathetically obvious?

We also have had blue statements saying they'll never do a raid like Sunwell again that such a small fraction of the player population will see.

I think you are confusing Blizzard's intention. It is true that Blizzard doesn't want another Sunwell where only a small percentage of players has seen the content but the cause is not simply content difficulty.

There are a few reasons that I can think off of the top of my head for why so little saw Sunwell
1. Gating
2. Gear progression was rather difficult
3. Class balance made a rigid raid comp
4. Loosing 1 or 2 tank/heal along the way can often stop progression to the point of disbanding

There may be other reasons but content difficulty is definitely not the sole reason why so little people saw Sunwell. So when Blizzard said they do not want to repeat that mistake again, they do not mean content difficulty alone.

Challenging content is needed for WoW to survive as it is now. Having only easy content will boil entire wow end game into a grind fest for BIS list and I don't see that model working out with a monthly sub fee attached. A prime example of this is SWTOR where people said end game was too easy so they finished all raids and unsubbed (and SWTOR quickly went into F2P mode).

On the other hand, having only hard difficulty for raids also isn't healthy for the game as it discourages new people from going into end game. This is why Blizzard made LFR + normal/heroic mode for every raid + hotfixes to fix overtuned bosses + evetual blanket % nerf so people can remained being properly challenged each step of way.

Harder (a better word imo is challenging) content is definitely needed for WoW to remain as it is.

[Tomana]

Then tell me, why has Blizzard spent so many resources on Heroic raids for the past 5 years? Don't you think analysts would have told Blizzard to go a different direction a long time ago if it designing such content wasn't cost effective?

Because now, the cost of creating a heroic raid is GREATLY mutualized with the cost of creating a normal raid. And since 4.3, with the cost of creating an LFR raid.
Heroic raids are not creating on their own - the art, the bosses, the gear is pretty similar accross the 3 difficulty levels.
Consequently, you do not just create a heroic raid for a 5% (for example) raiding population, you create it for the normal raiders and LFR raiders who are much more numerous. And THAT is cost effective.
Which is why Blizzard can still create heroic raids in the first place btw, because after the epitome of financial retardation called Sunwell, no way the devs could pull that stunt off again.

[Mazius]

There's more than enough hard raid content out there. Sha of Fear HC and Sha of Fear N + LFR are uncomparable, it's pretty much completely different fight.

You wanna gated access to raids like it was in early TBC? (When you had to kill pre-nerf Gruul just to get entry into SSC with 45 min respawn timer of Hydross's trash and 1 hour respawn timer of Lurker's trash with Lurker itself being bugged as hell so everybody just skipped him).

In terms of MoP it would look like this: to get access to MSV (normal) you need to complete all CM's with gold.
To get entry into HoF you have to complete Will of the Emperor HC.
To get access to ToES (normal) you need to kill Empress HC.
To get access to ToT (normal) you need to kill Sha of Fear HC.

No thank you.

[Orange Joe]

Blizzard can say what they want, most times I am sure they are correct, but sometimes like any other company they use language to dress up a negative aspect. LFR is not raiding.

Raiding is very simply going into a raid dungeon and killing bosses. No more no less.

[Grogo]

I think it's rather simple isn't it?

The first 25% of raiding content for those you who just want to dabble in raiding and/or get a taste and/or time constraints.

The next 50% of raiding content for those of average skill, think normal modes.

The last 25% of raiding content for those who want to test themselves and their team.

So easy - med - med - hard. Zero heroic modes, no rehash.

But what about those who do not get to see all the content? You get what you put into it, if you want it handed to you I would suggest that raiding is something not for you.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 06:08 PM ----------

Raiding is very simply going into a raid dungeon and killing bosses. No more no less.

Quite the simplification. Actually you described LFR. Raiding, like I mentioned earlier is not LFR and a different beast altogether. Ok so we have vastly different opinions on raiding.

Again, raiding is:

A group of people getting together to do something bigger than usual, it feels epic and rewarding.

Comraderie / brotherhood

Logistics / planning

Time invested

Community

Competition, with others or versus your own team. Investment of time and energy for epic rewards.

major teamwork

relationships


That is raiding for me. You say it is simply going and killing a boss. Very different opinions from us both.

[RickJamesLich]

The fan base in vanilla wow is massively different from the fan base for the current wow. In the original wow, even finishing some of the 5 mans could be considered challenging, stuff like Scholomance trash was on a 5 minute respawn timer. You basically had to work really hard just to get one piece of gear, and it was a blue lol. Most people I know didn't really mind, you didn't care if you had to fly on a wyvern for 5 minutes to get some where, or if you won or lost in world pvp.... people just enjoyed it.

Now, the fan base is more instant gratification based, they want an epic each time they log in. Raiding was too hard, so they made LFR, where you wait in a queue for 30 minutes and take cracks at piñatas. 5 mans were too tough, so they got nerfed and in their place were 5 man heroics. Those were too tough too, so they got nerfed.... a long time later, we get challenge modes, which don't drop any actual gear besides cosmetic stuff. Then some of the pvp crowd were upset that pve guys in pve specs could beat em, resilience gear was introduced.... then those guys were upset because they lost to better pvp'ers and couldn't get the gear, so they allow you just to get it with honor or by doing lowbie 2's matches, but there was still upgrades for the good players out there... now blizz is taking rating requirements off that stuff tho too lol.

The UI, quality of life, and other things have been improved, but the game definitely took the "world" out of world of warcraft in the process. Comparing wow of today to the original is like apples and oranges.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 06:10 PM ----------

Raiding is very simply going into a raid dungeon and killing bosses. No more no less.

Saying LFR is raiding is like comparing pro wrestling to the UFC lol.

[Orange Joe]

That is raiding for me. You say it is simply going and killing a boss. Very different opinions from us both.

That's fine, but you don't get to define what it is for everyone else. Blizzard defines raiding and entering a raid instance and killing bosses. That's what raiding is.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 01:12 PM ----------

Saying LFR is raiding is like comparing pro wrestling to the UFC lol.

I would say more like comparing HS basketball to the NBA.

[judgementofantonidas]

So you want applicants to have 600 cooking, farm the AH for a large amount of time and to not have a job.

Can you see why that's slowly becoming unreasonable (considering your large percentage of poor-quality applications)?

There are plenty of low quality guilds that are happy to take in low quality applicants. A raid guild should be defenition be looking for raiders. Raiders min/max, show up at raid with the required raid expendables (unless the guild has a plan that provides these), and at last a general knowledge of how any given encounter is to be approached. Add to this many raiding guilds also want some kind of assurance that you are not playing on a 15 year old laptop from a wi fi hotspot and going to cost them many wipes due to dissconects and/or lag outs.

There are many casual guilds that players who do not have the (put excuse here) can join. Often without any kind of formal application process.

[melodramocracy]

I can't believe how many people in these threads willingly ignore the idea that any goal that takes effort / determination to achieve is almost always more inherently rewarding on a psychological level.

[Grogo]

That's fine, but you don't get to define what it is for everyone else. Blizzard defines raiding and entering a raid instance and killing bosses. That's what raiding is.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 01:12 PM ----------



I would say more like comparing HS basketball to the NBA.

I do not want to sound like a condescending prick so I will just ask you this? What is raiding for you personally? I thought my definition was pretty accurate and I also believe most would agree with it. You do not for some reason and I am curious as to why and what raiding is to you?

[Tharkkun]

Because they abandoned that design. I mean, isn't this pathetically obvious?

We also have had blue statements saying they'll never do a raid like Sunwell again that such a small fraction of the player population will see.

They didn't abandon it. They added 2 levels of difficulty in WOTLK and 3 at the end of Cata. Wasn't it you who said the current content was too hard that not enough players have completed it prior to 5.2? So hard that guilds were dissolving? Wouldn't that be contradicting your statement that Blizzard isn't catering to a small fraction of the player base? It's quite obvious they cater to 3 different demographics at this point.

[Grogo]

The fan base in vanilla wow is massively different from the fan base for the current wow. In the original wow, even finishing some of the 5 mans could be considered challenging, stuff like Scholomance trash was on a 5 minute respawn timer. You basically had to work really hard just to get one piece of gear, and it was a blue lol. Most people I know didn't really mind, you didn't care if you had to fly on a wyvern for 5 minutes to get some where, or if you won or lost in world pvp.... people just enjoyed it.

Now, the fan base is more instant gratification based, they want an epic each time they log in. Raiding was too hard, so they made LFR, where you wait in a queue for 30 minutes and take cracks at piñatas. 5 mans were too tough, so they got nerfed and in their place were 5 man heroics. Those were too tough too, so they got nerfed.... a long time later, we get challenge modes, which don't drop any actual gear besides cosmetic stuff. Then some of the pvp crowd were upset that pve guys in pve specs could beat em, resilience gear was introduced.... then those guys were upset because they lost to better pvp'ers and couldn't get the gear, so they allow you just to get it with honor or by doing lowbie 2's matches, but there was still upgrades for the good players out there... now blizz is taking rating requirements off that stuff tho too lol.

The UI, quality of life, and other things have been improved, but the game definitely took the "world" out of world of warcraft in the process. Comparing wow of today to the original is like apples and oranges.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 06:10 PM ----------



Saying LFR is raiding is like comparing pro wrestling to the UFC lol.

I have to say, your opinions/observations above are pretty spot on as to what I believe as well.

[judgementofantonidas]

I can't believe how many people in these threads willingly ignore the idea that any goal that takes effort / determination to achieve is almost always more inherently rewarding on a psychological level.

many do realize that and post statements to support it. they also end up being mercilessly bashed by the advocates of I cannot take time away from bashing you on a fan site in order to farm up my raid mats. LOL

[Orange Joe]

I do not want to sound like a condescending prick so I will just ask you this? What is raiding for you personally? I thought my definition was pretty accurate and I also believe most would agree with it. You do not for some reason and I am curious as to why and what raiding is to you?

Refer to my previous to post on what raiding is to me. And something tells me you would be surprised on how many agree with me over you.


Btw I don't do LFR. If you want to check my toon is Baar on bloodhoof-us. I did it once because my guild almost forced me to.
Alt = worlock on bloodhoof-us also

[Grogo]

I can't believe how many people in these threads willingly ignore the idea that any goal that takes effort / determination to achieve is almost always more inherently rewarding on a psychological level.

What do you mean?

[Orange Joe]

What do you mean?

He thinks everyone feels the same in that

Working harder = more rewarding.

When in fact many people feel differently about it.

[Grogo]

Refer to my previous to post on what raiding is to me. And something tells me you would be surprised on how many agree with me over you.


Btw I don't do LFR. If you want to check my toon is Baar on bloodhoof-us. I did it once because my guild almost forced me to.
Alt = worlock on bloodhoof-us also

What previous post? Paste in below dude.

[Orange Joe]

What previous post? Paste in below dude.

Where have you been this whole conversation?

Raiding is very simply going into a raid dungeon and killing bosses. No more no less.

That's fine, but you don't get to define what it is for everyone else. Blizzard defines raiding and entering a raid instance and killing bosses. That's what raiding is.

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 01:12 PM ----------



I would say more like comparing HS basketball to the NBA.

[wow2011]

That's fine, but you don't get to define what it is for everyone else. Blizzard defines raiding and entering a raid instance and killing bosses. That's what raiding is.

Where is that definition written? I was not aware that Blizzard has come out and defined what raiding is in black and white. With that definition, me going back to MC farming pets can be counted as raiding as well. Please post a link.

[Grogo]

He thinks everyone feels the same in that

Working harder = more rewarding.

When in fact many people feel differently about it.

Well, it is common sense and what our life is based off of. If something is extremely simple to do, everyone can do it easily and does it...that cannot be rewarding in itself. Hiow could it be? ( IE - I did one sit up for one day...now give me my flashy abs..doesnt work that way)

---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 06:30 PM ----------

Where have you been this whole conversation?

Are you fucking serious? You meant that? Ok, have a great day looks like we are done. Later.