MoP: are we fighting for the wrong team?

[Aquamonkey]

The trolls existed on Azeroth for quite a long time before the Titans did, as did the Tauren.

I'll chock that up to bad writing. First, the war between the Old Gods using Faceless Ones and elemental lords didn't squish the Tauren/Trolls? Second, the war between the Old Gods and the Titans didn't squish the Tauren/Trolls? Third, the Titans molding the planet like clay during their terraforming didn't squish the Tauren/Trolls?

I can't find anything that says Trolls were on Azeroth before the Titans came. Tauren is based on Bronzebeard's speculation.


"As the Titans made their way across the primordial landscape, they encountered a number of hostile elemental beings."
"With the elementals' departure, nature calmed, and the world settled into a peaceful harmony."
"They shaped the worlds by raising mighty mountains and dredging out vast seas. They breathed skies and raging atmospheres into being."

When they describe it as "primordial landscape" before the Titans, it doesn't sound like the Azeroth was hospitable to complex organic life. Especially when it needs the Titans to breath an atmosphere onto it. Because it took "many ages [while] the Titans moved and shaped the earth," what likely happened was that the Tauren arose near the end of the Titans' terraforming process. Same with the proto-drakes.

If the old gods were keeping to themselves, the trolls probably wouldn't have been at war with the various insectoid races for thousands of years.
Seeing as old gods have a penchant for mind raping everything they can, we can pretty well assume that they liked doing it back then too, simply for the hell of doing it.

They didn't mind rape anything back then. They created the Faceless Ones and used their elemental lords. The insectoids were created by the Well of Eternity.

The premise of the Titan's re-origination, quoting Algalon, was that "it was in the universes' best interest to re-originate the planet" if it were corrupted beyond fixing, likely to stop the old gods from further spreading. Moreover, re-origination holds that Azeroth would be "remade" into a life-supporting planet, not left as a lifeless husk.

The old gods wanted to blow everything up so they could be free to continue their little melee on an ash-strewn world.

"I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart, devoid of emotion... of empathy. I... have... felt... NOTHING! A million, million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?"

What about all these other planets they sterilized that didn't have the Old Gods? The Titans commit genocide against sentient beings across the universe on countless planets. They only like a certain kind of life, all other life forms are exterminated. They are space-Nazis.

[iscalio]

What about all these other planets they sterilized that didn't have the Old Gods? The Titans commit genocide against sentient beings across the universe on countless planets. They only like a certain kind of life, all other life forms are exterminated. They are space-Nazis.

First of all, "sterilized" implies that the planet in question is left lifeless, which is counter to what we know about the titans. They only destroy so they can create anew, so they don't appear to "sterilize" planets. And secondly, you have no context for Algalon's accounts of destruction, thus your space nazi accusation is speculation. All those worlds Algalon has witnessed being cleansed by Titan fire might have been irrevocably corrupted, and nothing might have been left of the original inhabitants but perverted, suffering, hateful and irrational shadowy husks left over by the old gods, ruminating their own insanity.

This does not mean that the Titans had a "right" to eradicate these infested species, or that they made the correct judgment call in each case. But they would still be a far cry from a spacefaring genocide circus with intolerant tastes.

[Okacz]

What if humans were wrong ?

Nah, sausage is too good to be a resoult of an evil act.

But seriously, thats the only way we can seek any answers on moral grounds - we have to compare Mogu to us. What if we are wrong? I don't really think eating pigs is wrong or anything, same with the process of creating the pig. And if the Mogu and us are, in fact, evil, how can we know by todays standards?

[Arrowstormen]

I don't see how anyone can come to this conclusion. Mogu were titan created, but so were the four legged cat people in Uldum, and we killed everyone but a small tribe that wasn't on Team Old God. Mogu didn't know what to do because they were created to destroy something they'd destroyed, so in their titan-created wisdom they decided to kill each other, maybe to eventually remove themselves from Azeroth.

But then Lei Shen kills a titan and takes his powers, a very wise act and all part of the titans' plan surely, and then they start creating races and use them as slaves, because the titans thought it was a good idea to have SOME slavers after the Old Gods were gone. It was totally unfair for the Pandaren to break free, when the nice titan-created Mogus just wanted someone to whip.

Also, the wise titans send a herald once, that decided our planet should be reset. It was so unfair we decided to smash his face until he left without resetting the planet.

[Okacz]

I don't see how anyone can come to this conclusion. Mogu were titan created, but so were the four legged cat people in Uldum, and we killed everyone but a small tribe that wasn't on Team Old God. Mogu didn't know what to do because they were created to destroy something they'd destroyed, so in their titan-created wisdom they decided to kill each other, maybe to eventually remove themselves from Azeroth.

But then Lei Shen kills a titan and takes his powers, a very wise act and all part of the titans' plan surely, and then they start creating races and use them as slaves, because the titans thought it was a good idea to have SOME slavers after the Old Gods were gone. It was totally unfair for the Pandaren to break free, when the nice titan-created Mogus just wanted someone to whip.

Also, the wise titans send a herald once, that decided our planet should be reset. It was so unfair we decided to smash his face until he left without resetting the planet.

Well, the thing is Mogu most likely learned all about their "lifestyle" from Lei Shen, when he discovered who they really are. They were titanic creations, left alone to die out or whatever after they fulfilled their purpose (pretty douchy move of Titans).

If the theory of Pandaren being created by Mogu is right, Mogu aren't any more evil than the Titans themselves. They did the exactly same thing. They created lifeforms using their magic powers so they would serve them. And, just like Titans did not give a jack shit about Mogu after all, Mogu didn't give it about the Pandaren and Saurok. In their perception it was the Pandaren who were evil for breaking free. This perception is quite stupid indeed, but it's something they adapted from Titans.

And with Lei Shen enslaving the Titan asshole who decided that "screw this race, they helped us, let's watch them die out in mindless fighting"... I guess I'm in Mogu team here. I would be pissed off as well if I found out that I'm just a forsaken machine.

[bufferunderrun]

the central point is many races got corrupted by the curse of flesh, some of them like the dwarfs, or the tolvir build their own empire and don't enslaved anyone other like the mogu turn violents and try to dominate they liforms around them, substantially the curse of flesh give all those titan created races free will and how they use it is what make them your friends or foes.
Also in wow we don't always side with the "right side", sometime we take dirty jobs, think how many foe we helped around all the quests, zandalari, klaxxy, the aziol nerub spider, the gnome mage in alcatraz later revealed to be an agent of the twilight hammer etc.

[Horizon]

With patch 5.2 coming closer and closer it was a good idea to peek into the Pandaria lore even more.

Basically, what we know is: Mogu were created by Titans to battle an Old God (possibly the one Mantid are worshipping), after fulfilling their mission they were abandoned and clueless what to do. The Mogu clans fought each other without any sense or reason, until Lei Shen decided to look for the source of their existance. He found out they were titanic creations, and with this knowledge and his personal skills he was able to subdue a Titan/Watcher (who the hell knows, Ra-Den) and channel his powers, becoming powerfull emperor. He also learned the secrets of the flesh-shaping and utilized it to create slaves to build his empire.

Now wait.

As far as I'm concerned there are 2 races that are created by the Mogu: Saurok (by flesh-shaping some lizards) and Grummle (by flesh-shaping some troggs). The rest of Pandarian races were already there: Mantid were the enemy of Mogu, Yaungol were the Tauren who just hunted around, Jinyu were the evolved Murlocs, Hozen were... well, a bad joke. But it is said that Mogu had three races to serve them. Saurok, Grummle, and Pandaren.

What do we know about the Pandaren, then? Well, they were slaves of the Mogu. After Lei Shens death they managed to start a rebellion and break free, removing the element of cheap labor from Mogu culture and pretty much stopping their reign. Wait a second, what do we know about the Pandaren BEFORE that? Pretty much nothing.

So, the thing is: Pandaren are a Mogu creation as well. Just like they flesh-shaped lizards to create Saurok, they did this to some pandas and we all see the resoults. Pandaren were not enslaved - it was a race that was created to be slaves. A bit like machines, created to serve, but somehow managing to regain free will and breaking their chains. Similiar to the Terminator series? A bit, I guess.

Let's summ it up. A race of betrayed soldiers, who fought an incredible evil god, was left alone by their masters. After years of being helpless, one of them managed to find out about their origins and get the power they deserved. With this power they created their own servants from nearby lifestock. And those servants were used to build amazing temples, bridges, palaces, and a huge wall that separated the Mogu from their greatest enemies. And, somehow, the slaves revolved, crippling the empire and turning it to dust. Are we working for the rebelled machines to fight off the mankind?

Of course, it's taking things too far. But some facts are quite interesting over here. Are the Mogu really evil, are Pandaren their creations, should we concentrate on helping them?

Thanks for writing this, an interesting read and I hope there might be something to it. Black and white fairy-tales have never been a favour of mine :>

[Deleted]

Very interesting facts you're bringing up, this would be amazing to be on the "But wait! There's lore!" show.

[Aquamonkey]

First of all, "sterilized" implies that the planet in question is left lifeless, which is counter to what we know about the titans. They only destroy so they can create anew, so they don't appear to "sterilize" planets.

"I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper." Sounds like a sterilization process. The point is to eradicate life on the planet to start over.

And secondly, you have no context for Algalon's accounts of destruction, thus your space nazi accusation is speculation. All those worlds Algalon has witnessed being cleansed by Titan fire might have been irrevocably corrupted, and nothing might have been left of the original inhabitants but perverted, suffering, hateful and irrational shadowy husks left over by the old gods, ruminating their own insanity.

This does not mean that the Titans had a "right" to eradicate these infested species, or that they made the correct judgment call in each case. But they would still be a far cry from a spacefaring genocide circus with intolerant tastes.

"A million, million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?" Algalon is saying this as you try to stop him from re-originating Azeroth. He sees the PCs and all life on Azeroth as corrupted/flawed/failed and is about wipe it clean like countless worlds before. His attitude shows that the Titans don't value life that isn't of their perfect design. They don't even recognize it. He only reconsiders because, by the miracle of plot armor, we just happened to be there to kick his ass.

Looking back at all the re-originations he did, he ponders on whether all those dead races would also have preferred to not be exterminated. The Titans just showed up and dowsed the planets in fire without consideration for the inhabitants and before they could even understand what was happening.

[Yriel]

I'll chock that up to bad writing. First, the war between the Old Gods using Faceless Ones and elemental lords didn't squish the Tauren/Trolls? Second, the war between the Old Gods and the Titans didn't squish the Tauren/Trolls? Third, the Titans molding the planet like clay during their terraforming didn't squish the Tauren/Trolls?

I can't find anything that says Trolls were on Azeroth before the Titans came. Tauren is based on Bronzebeard's speculation.

Aside from a dev in ask the Devs part 2 :
Q: What races were on Azeroth before the coming of the titans?
A: Besides the elementals, the only known sentient races on Azeroth when the titans' forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods were the trolls, the race known as "faceless ones," and the aqir. Due to the Old Gods' war against the titans, as well as the extensive terraforming that followed the war's conclusion, records of what races existed before even the Old Gods' arrival have likely been lost forever.

there is some ingame lore. In the old stranglethorn quests (don't know if it is still in the game) you had to collect several troll tablets and on one of them the trolls described the arrival of the titans. The trolls call them Travelers.

[Ghul]

its all a matter of the point of view i guess.

[Aquamonkey]

Aside from a dev in ask the Devs part 2 :
Q: What races were on Azeroth before the coming of the titans?
A: Besides the elementals, the only known sentient races on Azeroth when the titans' forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods were the trolls, the race known as "faceless ones," and the aqir. Due to the Old Gods' war against the titans, as well as the extensive terraforming that followed the war's conclusion, records of what races existed before even the Old Gods' arrival have likely been lost forever.

there is some ingame lore. In the old stranglethorn quests (don't know if it is still in the game) you had to collect several troll tablets and on one of them the trolls described the arrival of the titans. The trolls call them Travelers.

I'm finding conflicting information on the Aqir. Specifically around the origin of the Qiraji. One source says they came from Aqir (created by the Old Gods before the Titans came) and another says they came from Silithid (created by the Well of Eternity, modified by the Old Gods).

EDIT: That inconsistency aside, there are 2 timeframes happening. There's the 1st inceident where the Titans came and fought the Old Gods and the elemental lords. Then there's the time after or near the end of the terraforming (which took many ages) where the Old Gods infected Titan creations with the curse.

I think its near this 2nd incident where the Trolls had their war with the Aqir 16,000 years ago. http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Twin_Empires Specifically says the Aqir empire was trying to eradicate non-insect life from Kalimdor. This had to be after the Titan terraforming because they're the ones who created and named the continent of Kalimdor.

Aside from the naming of Kalimdor, the war Troll/Aqir war 16,000 years ago doesn't line up with it taking the Titans "many ages" to do their terraforming. An age is generally about 2000 years. "Many" is generally >6. If that war happened before the Titans ever set foot on Azeroth, that would mean the earliest they finished terraforming was about 4000 years ago? But that can't be right because the War of the Ancients happened 10,000 years ago, long after terraforming ended.

[Sylf]

I don't think so, but I've read enough fantasy and sci-fi to step outside the bounds of "only humans are people". It doesn't matter to me who created them or for what purpose--if they are sentient and have free will, then they are people, and enslaving people against their will is evil.

I've seen that you are really hung up on this enslaving people=evil deal. Then I take it you think humans are evil for enslaving orcs. Orcs evil for enslaving humans. Trolls evil for enslaving goblins. Forsaken evil for enslaving everything.

If you think the mogu are evil for enslaving two or three races on a small continent for a reason (fighting the mantid). How evil isn't the other races in the horde/alliance for murdering and pillageing eachother and especially other lesser races like furbolgs and wendigos. Take a good look at your character, he/she has caused so much harm and suffering to thousands upon thousands of different people. That's something I call evil.

[Deleted]

So you're saying it was okay for the Mogu to enslave the Pandaren if that's what they were created for? I disagree. Flesh-shaped creations or not, they aren't mindless automatons. They're clearly intelligent, free-willed individuals in the game, and didn't deserve the treatment they got from the Mogu.

thats just like shamans, warlocks, mages and hunters have elementals/pets.

[iscalio]

His attitude shows that the Titans don't value life that isn't of their perfect design. They don't even recognize it.

That's not convincing. Nothing says that the Titans do not value life. In fact if they didn't as you claim, then they could have likely destroyed Azeroth to begin with instead of only locking the old gods away. They imprisoned the old gods instead of destroying them since they had infected Azeroth so deeply that their forceful removal would have destroyed the planet. Since the Titans did in fact value Azeroth's life, they locked the old gods away, hoping that everything might work out, but left behind the re-origination device in case the old gods proved too powerful and ended up corrupting all life after all.
Re-origination was their ultima ratio.

Looking back at all the re-originations he did, he ponders on whether all those dead races would also have preferred to not be exterminated. The Titans just showed up and dowsed the planets in fire without consideration for the inhabitants and before they could even understand what was happening.

You have to remember that Algalon is himself not a Titan, but more something akin to a program whose sole purpose is implementing re-origination. His previous lack of consideration for the planets he cleansed does not at all reflect on the decision-making process of the Titans, who might very well have shown great sadness for the life they had to destroy since it was utterly corrupted by the old gods.

Again, there is far too little information about the Titans available (which is intended, as Dave Kosak said on Feb 27th) to paint them as the unfeeling villains you have made up in your head. They might be exactly that, but they might also be benevolent but fallible deities trying their best to help all life in the universe against the forces of chaos.

[Combatbutler]

You have to remember that Algalon is himself not a Titan, but more something akin to a program whose sole purpose is implementing re-origination. His previous lack of consideration for the planets he cleansed does not at all reflect on the decision-making process of the Titans, who might very well have shown great sadness for the life they had to destroy since it was utterly corrupted by the old gods.

I myself don't trust the titans at all, their actions and view on the universe are quite shady, who are they to decide who lives or dies, who are they to shape the universe as they see fit?

Even if they show great sadness for the lives lost it does not change the fact that they exterminated a sentient species ,an entire world, like it was nothing.
It is ruthless calculus and should only be used as absolutely last option.

For me Titans are detached scientists running an experiment upon the universe and every undesirable result is destroyed and rebuild in a different manner.

[willtron]

i look at lore like pvp - if it's red, it's dead.

[Aquamonkey]

That's not convincing. Nothing says that the Titans do not value life. In fact if they didn't as you claim, then they could have likely destroyed Azeroth to begin with instead of only locking the old gods away. They imprisoned the old gods instead of destroying them since they had infected Azeroth so deeply that their forceful removal would have destroyed the planet. Since the Titans did in fact value Azeroth's life, they locked the old gods away, hoping that everything might work out, but left behind the re-origination device in case the old gods proved too powerful and ended up corrupting all life after all.
Re-origination was their ultima ratio.

I didn't say they didn't value life. I said they didn't value life that didn't fit their perfect design. Old Gods and their creations are forms of life. As are demons. And who knows what else was on those planets they cleansed.

You have to remember that Algalon is himself not a Titan, but more something akin to a program whose sole purpose is implementing re-origination. His previous lack of consideration for the planets he cleansed does not at all reflect on the decision-making process of the Titans, who might very well have shown great sadness for the life they had to destroy since it was utterly corrupted by the old gods.

Again, there is far too little information about the Titans available (which is intended, as Dave Kosak said on Feb 27th) to paint them as the unfeeling villains you have made up in your head. They might be exactly that, but they might also be benevolent but fallible deities trying their best to help all life in the universe against the forces of chaos.

Algalon isn't the one who burns the planets. Algalon is just the appraiser who tells them which planets failed. It's the Titans who then come and sterilize the planets with the "Makers' flames".

The Titans first encountered the Old Gods on Azeroth, then imprisoned and put them to sleep. "An imprisoned, sleeping, or otherwise enfeebled god may still have an effect--conscious or not--on the god's surroundings." That means the Old Gods can only have influence on Azeroth. Those countless other worlds the Titans burned had nothing to do with the Old Gods. The Titans just didn't like them.

[willtron]

I myself don't trust the titans at all, their actions and view on the universe are quite shady, who are they to decide who lives or dies, who are they to shape the universe as they see fit?

Even if they show great sadness for the lives lost it does not change the fact that they exterminated a sentient species ,an entire world, like it was nothing.
It is ruthless calculus and should only be used as absolutely last option.

For me Titans are detached scientists running an experiment upon the universe and every undesirable result is destroyed and rebuild in a different manner.

in the eyes of the titans we are nothing, they've probably created thousands of planets like azeroth for all we know. The fact we are able to defeat Algalon, a fail-safe program (PvE in a PvE game... PvEception yo!) shows we as player's are not insignificant.

Plus Algalon at the end of the encounter shows some remorse for all the planets he has re-originated in the past, they are not without emotion, they just stiff upper lip it and get on with their job because it's what they're there to do

edit: whoop, 1000 posts

---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 01:07 PM ----------

The Titans first encountered the Old Gods on Azeroth, then imprisoned and put them to sleep. "An imprisoned, sleeping, or otherwise enfeebled god may still have an effect--conscious or not--on the god's surroundings." That means the Old Gods can only have influence on Azeroth. Those countless other worlds the Titans burned had nothing to do with the Old Gods. The Titans just didn't like them.

The titans struggled against the Old Gods iirc.

As far as I'm aware we haven't actually fought a fully functioning old god yet - but we have fought off certain sections; EYE of C'Thun, MAW of Yogg Saron.

I apologise for falling back into the same old god discussion but are the old gods of azeroth actually parts of 1 big super old god? or are the old gods just centered around one sense - so to speak?

Are they also located purely to azeroth or could we see the tendrils of corruption (literally!) in some far off distant planet?

[Aquamonkey]

The titans struggled against the Old Gods iirc.

As far as I'm aware we haven't actually fought a fully functioning old god yet - but we have fought off certain sections; EYE of C'Thun, MAW of Yogg Saron.

I apologise to fall back into the same old god discussion but are the old gods of azeroth actually parts of 1 big super old god? or are the old gods just centered around one sense - so to speak?

Are they also located purely to azeroth or could we see the tendrils of corruption (literally!) in some far off distant planet?

They are only on Azeroth and each of the 5 is a separate entity. The Titans fought the Old Gods' full forms. All we've fought were pieces of them. They were mostly asleep/dampened when we fought them too.