Thunderforged: 25 man vs 10 man

[Dubalicious]

Because they said 25s would be "slightly higher." Doesn't sound like there's anything slight about it so far.

Well what's "slight". To me, it would be triple, or close to triple, the drop chance. So if it's 20%:50% there's a pretty good chance a 10 could get unluck and get closer to 10% and a 25 could get lucky and get 60% which results in a HUGE difference in gear - between two fictional guilds.

It's way too early to claim that 25's are getting showered with TF while 10's are suffering from the longest drought in TF history. This was Blizzard's fix, not 25 man raiders fix - we didn't want this to be the solution any more than you guys, but perhaps it actually WILL provide a bit of incentive and get 25's rolling again.

[DeiVias]

Considering there is less then 1000 raiding 25 man guild's these days and close to 30,000 10 mans i'm glad there throwing us some type of bone.

[Pandacally]

I do not understand why everybody thinks that some "incentives" like easier content or more loot will bring people back to 25m. No 10man group will upscale 25man, if you make 10m harder&less loot, many will just get frustrated and quit the game. Sure, already existing 25m might be able to recruit more people from all the declining/falling apart 10m raids, but effectively the raiding scene loses more people overall because many quit.
Sooner or later blizz will be forced to do one raidsize only I guess.

[Ragnarohk]

But the likelihood of it being EXACTLY 50/50 (or any other specific combination) is much higher with only 6 flips.

FALSE, The more flips you do, the closer you get to a perfect 50/50 distribution (central limit theorem). That is basically a binomial distribution for discreet data. If you did only 6 flips, the probability of you getting 3 heads and 3 tails (50/50) would be the following.
Using the probability mass function: p=0.5 q=0.5 n=6 x=3
f(3)=(6C3)(0.5^3)[(1-0.5)^(6-3)] = 0.3125 (31.25%)

[DeiVias]

I do not understand why everybody thinks that some "incentives" like easier content or more loot will bring people back to 25m.

It wont, but it will stop 25 man going extinct.

10 man is easier in so many ways that if they don't throw 25 man a bone there will be none left and that will be very very sad.

They don't have to make it easier, Thunderforged and other ideas similar are fine.

[Mormolyce]

Well seems to me that 40% is pretty high, maybe you were obscenely lucky, or maybe they made the drop rate higher than they intended. Shrug.

I really hate the whole thunderforged concept.. just hate to have to upgrade from 522 to 528, exact same item. More things to throw enchanting/gem money on.

Well by that logic they should remove heroic gear, and normal gear, and we should all just wear LFR gear the rest of the tier. Upgrading gear is the only form of progression possible in endgame content.

---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 04:51 AM ----------

I do not understand why everybody thinks that some "incentives" like easier content or more loot will bring people back to 25m. No 10man group will upscale 25man, if you make 10m harder&less loot, many will just get frustrated and quit the game. Sure, already existing 25m might be able to recruit more people from all the declining/falling apart 10m raids, but effectively the raiding scene loses more people overall because many quit.
Sooner or later blizz will be forced to do one raidsize only I guess.

They explicitly did not want to force 10m guilds to go 25m. They did this to instead reward 25m guilds for the extra effort they put in, and maybe stop some 25m guilds downsizing to 10m. Or at least offset that phenomenon a bit.

The trouble is that one raid size forces everyone to change. Maybe in WoW 2 :P

[Saegno]

We ran 2 10 man groups this week, group one killed first boss and got a thunderforged(which I got ) and group two killed first and second boss and got 1 thunderforged off second boss.

25's next week since 10 man tuning is retarded.

[Stryk]

I actually think 10 man is easier than 25 man from what I have observed. Ji-Kun, Durumu, Primordius and Dark Animus could get a lot more complicated with 25 people as opposed to 10. I'm currently in a 10m so I might be wrong and anyone doing 25m feel free to comment. Also, 11/12 bosses down, 1 TF item so far off Tortos.

[Deleted]

We never saw the leather belt from TOES in a 25 man guild either, you know. The belts from terrace were just THAT rare. Barely anyone got their BiS if it included those belts.
Also - if you use the example that you get the same item 3 weeks in a row in a 10 man, that's 50% of the loot of the boss. That means that you're assuming that a 25 man can use an item if they get 3 of those a week, for 3 weeks in a row (a total of 9). This is just not the case, unless we're talking jewellery (which 10 man has a decent chance of using 3 of the same of, too).

RNG is RNG, both sizes. Don't just assume the grass is greener on the other side.

But the grass just seems greener for 25 man when it comes to loot. I'm not saying 25 mans shouldn't get an incentive, cause I believe it's a fair call. But there's a heck of a bigger chance that items can be used for OS in 25 man than in 10 man. 1 item (non jewelry then) 3 weeks in a row, who will end up DE'ing those Agility leather legs or the Agi mail shoulders from Protectors first?

Again, I'm not saying that 25 mans don't have to endure RNG, cause we all do. I'm just saying, that if the disparity in drop rates of Thunderforged items is too high, it may just end up increasing the gear advantage 25 man has over 10 man too much. Blizz wants to consider both sizes equally (regarding of players opinion) but if the loot disparity becomes too big (as a result to give 25 man more incentive), they will effectively case an imbalance too big to be able to even remotely consider both raid sizes equal.

This is not a 10 vs. 25 man discussion I'm trying to inflame, I just think it's a messy road they're taking. That said, I don't have another solution to the decline in 25 man guilds and I do agree that something had to be done to prevent that.

[Zula95]

Sadly not. It's more chance than anything, but a 30-40% droprate DOES equal to 2x thunderforged per boss.

Also, just because 10 mans consist of players who do not want to reroll to get a better setup for their raid and waste less items, does not mean that they gear up slower - it just means you're taking "bad" setups.

Or in 10 man having 1-2 of each class after it drops once or twice makes it useless and due to RNG it decides to drop 15 weeks in a row. 10 man already gets the short end of the stick and it is getting it even worse. 25 should have a higher rate but not by that much. 20% chance in 10 man and 25-30% chance in 25 man would be fine.

[Deleted]

- easier composition
- better loot spread
- more loot
- garuanteed tokens
- x6 TF items

25m is getting rediculous. Just euthanise it allready Blizzard.
10m is better because people want to play and raid with friends. Nobody has 24 close friends. Only racing guilds care about 25m and only because of all the above reasons, it's far quicker to finish content.

[Tingol]

it is imposible to give incentive to 25 man cause no matter what they do ppl will complain "omg 10's are screwed".

20% for 10 and 25% for 25? you call that "an edge"? really? the idea was to give 25 mans easier time in that regard

[Ezzyo]

10/12 10 man, two TF items thus far. Don't really mind either way, but seeing 5 TF pieces drop off one boss for a guild seems a bit over the top. I'd personally make it rarer on 10 and give 25 the current 10m chance if anything.

[Deleted]

10/12 10 man, two TF items thus far. Don't really mind either way, but seeing 5 TF pieces drop off one boss for a guild seems a bit over the top. I'd personally make it rarer on 10 and give 25 the current 10m chance if anything.

You realise under this 10 man would almost -never- see TF items, to the point where they may as well not even drop right?

[Pandacally]

Went 11/12 without a TF drop for any of our players, not even on bonus rolls. 10m obviously

Also consider a decent 25m guild needs 4-5 weeks to fully gear their raid, whereas in 10m you need 10 weeks+ and still missing pieces

[Kralljin]

In our 10Man Raid we cleared with 2 Raids 9 / 12 and 6 / 12 currently ( Half Main / Half Alt Raids) and got 2 TF Items total so far, one of them was from a bonus roll.

When i'm looking at 25man and they get almost from any boss at least 2 TF items i want to puke.

TF was supposed to be rare, 25man has such a huge chance to get TF items that you can't consider them rare.

Though for more casual Raids this may not be a huge difference but for Hardcore 10man Raids it's just unbearable, even 25man Raids that manage to beat 3-4 easier Hc Bosses can now surpass you in terms of Ilvl because they get TF Stuff while in 10man you hardly get any TF stuff at all.

25Man already has the Loot Advantage, overall it's much easier to get a fully BiS geared 25man Raid than a fully BiS 10man Raid even before the introduction of TF items.

[Dubalicious]

FALSE, The more flips you do, the closer you get to a perfect 50/50 distribution (central limit theorem).

That wasn't what I claimed though. My claim was that it's more likely to get EXACTLY 50/50 when you flip 6 times (7 possible outcomes, likelihood of 50/50 is 14.28%) as opposed to 30 times (31 possible outcomes, likelihood of 50/50 is 3.22%)

Quite honestly I have no idea what my point was in the first place lol

[Royalite]

TF is not suppose to be rare for 25s. It is the incentive to run 25s cause we are now such a small portion of the player base.

It is an uphill climb to maintain 25mans and having more TF allows 25s to start being on the same incline as the easier to logistically run ten mans.

[Tramzh]

TF is not suppose to be rare for 25s. It is the incentive to run 25s cause we are now such a small portion of the player base.

It is an uphill climb to maintain 25mans and having more TF allows 25s to start being on the same incline as the easier to logistically run ten mans.

You know if you count the amount of people that killed sha of fear hc last tier, more people killed it in a 25m guild. A 25 man boss currently, doesn't require equal amount of personal skill compared to a 10 man boss. 25 man guilds are steamrolling through ToT normal atm, 25 man guilds that didn't even kill sha of fear are already 8/12+ and they get rewarded greatly for it with extreme amount of TF gear compared to 10. I bet the TF "proc chance" is less than 1/5 on 10m per item.

Barely any casual guilds run 25 mans, that's why it looks like not many are doing it and it doesn't matter for them. 25s already had a huge advantage when it came to gear drops, now it's even more widened.

If they actually want to keep it this way and make people run 25s like previously they have to remove all the "realm first" FoSes from 10 and just make 25 generally harder.

[Deleted]

Thunderforged = full on retard

all I have to say.