Holy mother 10man nerf

[Osmeric]

According to WoW Progress, 55.98% of all guilds in the world that have killed Normal Jin'rokh have killed Normal Council. If 56% of guilds that kill the first boss can kill the third boss, the tuning of the third boss is "average."

How many players are 0/12 in T15? How many gave up (normal mode) raiding in T14 and are not able to raid T15 at all?

[HardCoder]

This is week 6 of a 24 week tier. So you should be 3/12 right now if you want to be on track for Ahead of the Curve: Lei Shen.

According to WoW Progress, 55.98% of all guilds in the world that have killed Normal Jin'rokh have killed Normal Council. If 56% of guilds that kill the first boss can kill the third boss, the tuning of the third boss is "average."

Jin'rokh the Breaker 21397 (100.00%)
Horridon 14321 (67.01%)
Council of Elders 11964 (55.98%)

You can't meaningfully farm gear from 2-3 bosses. When progression is due to gear because you have reached the limit of your skill, you have to get gear from somewhere. "Somewhere" isn't two bosses for 5 weeks.

---------- Post added 2013-04-15 at 01:53 PM ----------

You do realize horridon has a damage multiplier of 40% for a big part of the fight and that we were talking about the average DPS on single target without damage multipliers, right?

That, except that the buff goes up to 200% with 4 stacks of Cracked Shell. There will be a few DPS who just focus the boss because it's fun to see the big numbers, or because it's easy, or both.

[Deja Thoris]

Actually it's 98,864.1, which even at 88k is far above Injin's "average," lol. Thanks for taking the time to look that up though, I completely forgot about those WoL graphs/percentages/etc. Also since it is Jin, most LFR people don't even get in the puddle, sad but true.

It's not actually, Horridon gets a buff that increases his damage by 200%. Don't cherry pick fights with cheese buffs to skew your stats for you.

[Deleted]

Most normal raiders do LFRs for a while because LFRT15 gear can be better than NM T14 gear.

Take out all the normal raiders off of LFR's, and see how the group performance is. I'd love to see that, they'd wipe left and right and the dps/heal would be very low, there would be lots of wipe.

If "average" people are already struggling with LFR difficulty, how could you nerf NM enough ? And then the difference between LFR and NM would be so slim there would be no point in having 2 different difficulties.

It's an honest question, i'm not trying to be right, I'm just wondering what would be the point of having 2 difficulties of almost the same level. Or maybe then we should nerf lfr too..?

[Deleted]

Most normal raiders do LFRs for a while because LFRT15 gear can be better than NM T14 gear.

Which they ccouldn'tt get while current because most of it is behind garalon.

Take out all the normal raiders off of LFR's, and see how the group performance is. I'd love to see that, they'd wipe left and right and the dps/heal would be very low, there would be lots of wipe.

If "average" people are already struggling with LFR difficulty, how could you nerf NM enough ? And then the difference between LFR and NM would be so slim there would be no point in having 2 different difficulties.

That's replacing the top end of average with bad just to serve your argument.

It's an honest question, i'm not trying to be right, I'm just wondering what would be the point of having 2 difficulties of almost the same level. Or maybe then we should nerf lfr too..?

But that's the situation we have now - the difference between normal and heroic is just as small, but serves a lot fewer people.

[Henako]

#1 I'm a 'she' not a he.

Just tossing this out there, but I don't think anyone really cares.

[DisposableHero]

Which they ccouldn'tt get while current because most of it is behind garalon.

As an interesting addendum to this, gear means much more now than it has ever meant before. Total stats scale more than linearly with item level, DPS scales multiplicatively with secondary stat gains, and item level differences between tiers are higher now than they have ever been before thanks to three difficulty modes, elite, thunderforged, etc. Tier over Tier gains in DPS are much larger now than they have been at any point in the past. Looking at the top end parses, DPS from the start of tier 14 to the high end of Tier 15 has scaled by about the same percentage that it did from the start of tier 11 to the end tier 13 heroic.

[Deleted]

Which they ccouldn'tt get while current because most of it is behind garalon.


That's replacing the top end of average with bad just to serve your argument.

But that's the situation we have now - the difference between normal and heroic is just as small, but serves a lot fewer people.

Wrong.. I cleared T14 NM before 5.2 and did some heroics post nerf, we're 6/12 NM in ToT as of tonight and I still need at least 3/4 pieces of gear in LFRs . (Trinkets, Chest, Head, Shoulders, Off-Hand from the top of my head), and i'm 511 ilvl. (and I had 3K valor when 5.2 went out, meaning I was able to buy lots of 522 VP gear, imagine those who didnt)

Most normal guilds can still do LFR for some nice gear, unless you've been clearing it since week 2 or 3.

There's still lots of NM raiders going into LFR, skewing the "average" dps/heal or whatever. The "average" LFR player is even lower than you may think.

[Shypanda88]

Just tossing this out there, but I don't think anyone really cares.

Just tossing this out there, but I think you are coming off as a douche.

---------- Post added 2013-04-16 at 02:15 AM ----------

My statement was replying to someone else. Asshat

Infracted

[Crashdummy]

If "average" people are already struggling with LFR difficulty, how could you nerf NM enough ? And then the difference between LFR and NM would be so slim there would be no point in having 2 different difficulties.

It's an honest question, i'm not trying to be right, I'm just wondering what would be the point of having 2 difficulties of almost the same level. Or maybe then we should nerf lfr too..?

I wonder the same thing. The difference between LFR and Normal is HUGE.

The diference between last Normal boss and first heroic boss is none, actually, first heroic boss is easier than last Normal one.

I can tell you that Jinrokh Heroic is easier than Lei Shen Normal. And that Stone Guards Heroic were easier than Empress Normal.

The thing is, both Normal and Heroic are tuned for a single, very small group.

Then you have LFR tuned for uncoordinated groups and bad players.

And the average player, which represents most of the people, have NONE aimed for him.

[HardCoder]

The thing is, both Normal and Heroic are tuned for a single, very small group.

Then you have LFR tuned for uncoordinated groups and bad players.

And the average player, which represents most of the people, have NONE aimed for him.

The major difference between the "LFR player" and the "average player" is that when you take raid leadership and communication away from an average player, he becomes an LFR player. It's like trying to pug RBGs AND do it without voice communication. In general an uncoordinated group is hugely less effective for no reason other than the lack of coordination.

That said, I think LFR is kind of fun just because of its lack of coordination and the crazy things that happen because of it.

Now if you took "LFR players" and put them in a coordinated group, they would be much better. It's doubtful, though, that they would be better enough to find the current normal modes to be a lot of fun.

[Squirl]

I don't think the average player even raids. The numbers on WP are very, very low compared to the whole population of WoW. (43k guilds have killed Stone Guards normal).

[HardCoder]

I don't think the average player even raids. The numbers on WP are very, very low compared to the whole population of WoW. (43k guilds have killed Stone Guards normal).

Up until the advent of LFR, less than 50% of active players had ever killed a raid boss.

Bear in mind, a lot of players are newbies and are leveling toons. I'm not sure when it became a majority of players who had a max level toon but it was 2-3 expansions into the game.

[Amonthar]

Now that it has been an entire raid week since the nerf, has anyone looked at the increase in kills of bosses two and three?

[Osmeric]

Now that it has been an entire raid week since the nerf, has anyone looked at the increase in kills of bosses two and three?

Horridon was up a bit, but is still lagging 10K guilds behind where Feng was at this time in T14.

The problem is not just Horridon tuning, but the persistent effect of T14 tuning. Many guilds didn't gear out in T14, and appear largely not to be "playing as intended" and sticking there to gear out with the 10% nerf.

I don't think there's much Blizzard can do to fix it at this point. They've pretty much verbed the pooch with this design. I wonder how many mulligans they can call on raid design before people on the dev team start getting replaced.

[Lanthanum]

Now that it has been an entire raid week since the nerf, has anyone looked at the increase in kills of bosses two and three?

I can't speak for the entire population, but the nerf definitely helped our guild. After 2-3 weeks of focus purely on Horridon they managed to down him this weekend and the next day they got Council down.

[NeverStop]

Horridon was up a bit, but is still lagging 10K guilds behind where Feng was at this time in T14.

The problem is not just Horridon tuning, but the persistent effect of T14 tuning. Many guilds didn't gear out in T14, and appear largely not to be "playing as intended" and sticking there to gear out with the 10% nerf.

I don't think there's much Blizzard can do to fix it at this point. They've pretty much verbed the pooch with this design. I wonder how many mulligans they can call on raid design before people on the dev team start getting replaced.

Go go go Osmeric replace Ghostcrawler and bring forth the Golden Age of WoW.

[Tricksterjim]

I just don't understand why these bosses needed a nerf. I have read the arguments on both sides. Horridon and Council tool my guild about a week a piece to get down and that was in 25 man, but each week we didn't down them, our 10 man group went in and down them. I know these where the best 10 players we had out of 25, but it didn't seem any more difficult.

On the other hand, if a large number of guilds are having trouble downing it, it no longer affects me, so I do not care if they nerf it. It is still not an easy mode kill and requires some strategy and skill.

[Spl4sh3r]

Zerg strat required more dps than normal strat to kill it, not to mention healing through ~13 stacks of mutation.
That being said, it's a good thing they removed the strat. The fight is awful, but it's less awful when done properly.

I don't understand why people even did the zerg strat because you do so little damage compared to otherwise. Especially when you are mutated you get 10 buffs that increase your DPS above 100%

[Deja Thoris]

I just don't understand why these bosses needed a nerf. I have read the arguments on both sides

Whats unclear? It's been gone over ad infinitum why it was done. If you still don't understand theres a comprehnsion check you are failing.

but each week we didn't down them, our 10 man group went in and down them. I know these where the best 10 players we had out of 25, but it didn't seem any more difficult.

What? You cherrypicked the best 10 people out of 25 and a fight suddenly seemed easier? Theres a surprise.