It's not Nostalgia.

[Seefer]

Sorry, but if you want to be immersed go read a book or watch a movie. Games are meant to be played, forsaking improved gameplay for better "immersion" is retarded.

Games are a media form like books, tv, and movies...........to immerse yourself in, if you don't want to immerse yourself in a world that is made up and has a story maybe you should try something else.

---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 01:02 PM ----------

The game wasn't perfect back then. One HUGE reason it was enjoyable is because it was most of our first real MMO experience. We are all angry, jaded gamers now. The magic is gone for us ;( Going back to Vanilla now wouldn't change a thing.

I played MMOs before WoW and I really must say the convenience stuff has truly ruined a lot of the game, from the community to peoples skill levels.

[Zao]

I think a lot of you are missing 1 key FACT from the OP, and it's the one thing I can agree with:

Blizzard is removing gameplay and discovery in favour of MENUS and CONVENIENCE.

Yes, some things back then were a real pain in the ass, but if you wanted to run a dungeon you'd go and find it with your party; see the zones, fight your way to the entrance etc then spend sometimes as much as an hour chatting and exploring with your party - I made a lot of friends that way ingame. I've been levelling a monk in MoP and past level 15 I haven't moved it out of Stormwind/Serenity Peak once. Why? Because I don't need to. I just open the UI, queue and faceroll through a dungeon that is far too easy in 10minutes, in silence, for a level up. I can't really justify questing because it's not as efficient.

I enjoyed walking to a dungeon the first, maybe the second time.

It was a major PITA to do dungeons when leveling back then. There were multiple variables that had to be met:

1. Finding people willing to tank/heal. Keep in mind that this was before dual spec was even a rumor. And while it was possible to heal something in a DPS spec and int gear during the earlier dungeons, it got harder and harder in later dungeons and if you didn't have a proper tank it got even harder, if not to say impossible in some of the 50+ dungeons.
2. Even if there were 5 people in the same level range willing to do a dungeon, there was a high chance you'd never meet them because they were leveling in an entirely different area. Blizzard tried to alleviate that with the world wide LFG channel (and the World Defense channel) but I don't have to tell anybody playing back then how that turned out...
   Even City chats weren't shared between the capitals.
3. If you somehow found 5 people willing to do a dungeon in capital you still had to gather at the dungeon. The portal stones were introduced late in vanilla, WLs didn't gain the port until later levels, could only port outdoors and needed two additional people to do it.
   In most cases not everybody had the flightpaths to the area or even a mount. So they had to walk all the way from UC to SoS because you wanted to do ST.
4. This might not have been so bad for others, but I always hated fighting through the entrace of dungeons, especially BFD and ST were annoying.
5. And don't remind me of the highlevel characters of the enemy faction camping the entrance, causing your group to dissolve after the 5th time you've been killed without walking 5m.

I did to most of the dungeons back then because I was lucky enough to be either slightly ahead or a part of the bulk of people that started playing when WoW first came out. I wasn't that lucky with the rest of my characters and I missed every second dungeon because I couldn't find people for it.

I enjoyed WoW the most during the vanilla/BC era, but not because it was a better game but because it was all new and I hadn't burned out yet from 7 years and 400 days of playtime.

[Seefer]

I enjoyed walking to a dungeon the first, maybe the second time.

It was a major PITA to do dungeons when leveling back then. There were multiple variables that had to be met:

1. Finding people willing to tank/heal. Keep in mind that this was before dual spec was even a rumor. And while it was possible to heal something in a DPS spec and int gear during the earlier dungeons, it got harder and harder in later dungeons and if you didn't have a proper tank it got even harder, if not to say impossible in some of the 50+ dungeons.
2. Even if there were 5 people in the same level range willing to do a dungeon, there was a high chance you'd never meet them because they were leveling in an entirely different area. Blizzard tried to alleviate that with the world wide LFG channel (and the World Defense channel) but I don't have to tell anybody playing back then how that turned out...
   Even City chats weren't shared between the capitals.
3. If you somehow found 5 people willing to do a dungeon in capital you still had to gather at the dungeon. The portal stones were introduced late in vanilla, WLs didn't gain the port until later levels, could only port outdoors and needed two additional people to do it.
   In most cases not everybody had the flightpaths to the area or even a mount. So they had to walk all the way from UC to SoS because you wanted to do ST.
4. This might not have been so bad for others, but I always hated fighting through the entrace of dungeons, especially BFD and ST were annoying.
5. And don't remind me of the highlevel characters of the enemy faction camping the entrance, causing your group to dissolve after the 5th time you've been killed without walking 5m.

I did to most of the dungeons back then because I was lucky enough to be either slightly ahead or a part of the bulk of people that started playing when WoW first came out. I wasn't that lucky with the rest of my characters and I missed every second dungeon because I couldn't find people for it.

I enjoyed WoW the most during the vanilla/BC era, but not because it was a better game but because it was all new and I hadn't burned out yet from 7 years and 400 days of playtime.

See............maybe I was spoiled but I never had an issue getting groups in my guild for dungeons, I would ask in guild and minutes later we were on our way, and the high levels would even take us lower levels flight path gathering.

[Deleted]

My biggest issue is that the game feels less like an adventure and more like a group of systems or tools designed to progress your character these days.

Totally agree...

The one word which was used endlessly throughout Vanilla was ADVENTURING... what has Wow had to do with adventuring since Wrath?

Truth is, not much.

Those of us who miss the old days and therefore have a nostalgic yearn are actually missing the way they ADVENTURED through the game. The way they would have to explore to open up all of the wonders of Wow. The way that mixing with others was required and became part of that ADVENTURE. These days, everything new to Wow is heavily discussed on the forums, utilising websites for strats, techniques, skills and progress is now required. U can play the game solo, simply login and que. Therefore anything new in the game isnt discovered through ADVENTURING.

Next time u see someone discussing nostalgia with Wow replace it with adventuring what they miss and their posts actually make more sense

[yjmark]

what has Wow had to do with adventuring since Wrath?

How did Wrath have more "adventuring" than MoP? I'm a bit confused by what you mean. I guess I don't really remember adventuring any more back in Wrath than I do today. In fact, I would go the opposite route. I feel like I'm adventuring much more now than back in Wrath since there is so much more to do in MoP compared to WotLK.

[Lilija]

i don't give a fuck about how many people could see any content, because i don't reduce the whole game to one instance mode and say WoW in general is great because this piece of content is challenging/interesting/fun.

All content can be accessed by every player. If you are too lazy / unskilled or whatever, it's your choice. Simple as that.

Lack of skill was far on the long list of reasons why someone would not see whole content in Vanilla/TBC. Broken class balance and pointless time sinks were top. It the new design that actually rewards you for skill and knowledge and not playing the FotM or spending 24/7 in front of PC.

WoW offers something to do for everyone. WoW offers more challenges than before and it's mainly your personal skill and will to do something that decides if you are going to do something or not. And appart from the challenging content it does offer a lot of easy things to chill out with. There is something wrong with people who can't see it (or don't want to see it for whatever reason)

---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 06:38 PM ----------

Why are you comparing Vanilla raiding to LFR? Did they remove raiding with a guild from the game?

Prolly because LFR is the best he could do since it's only big easier than what 80% of Vanilla content had to offer.

[Seefer]

Lack of skill was far on the long list of reasons why someone would not see whole content in Vanilla/TBC. Broken class balance and pointless time sinks were top. It the new design that actually rewards you for skill and knowledge and not playing the FotM or spending 24/7 in front of PC.

WoW offers something to do for everyone. WoW offers more challenges than before and it's mainly your personal skill and will to do something that decides if you are going to do something or not. And appart from the challenging content it does offer a lot of easy things to chill out with. There is something wrong with people who can't see it (or don't want to see it for whatever reason)

---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 06:38 PM ----------


Prolly because LFR is the best he could do since it's only big easier than what 80% of Vanilla content had to offer.

Actually progression raiding has dropped drastically since Cata, which coincidentally enough is when LFR came out, people take the road of least resistance and well..........you can sit there and do nothing in LFR and still see content and get gear.

Oh and before you say it, I hate LFR and do normal raiding with my guild Friday and Saturday nights.

[Mawnix]

Actually progression raiding has dropped drastically since Cata, which coincidentally enough is when LFR came out, people take the road of least resistance and well..........you can sit there and do nothing in LFR and still see content and get gear.

Oh and before you say it, I hate LFR and do normal raiding with my guild Friday and Saturday nights.

And what's wrong with LFR exactly?

It's made for a more casual crowd of raider, and Blizzard's been working on a way to keep those who do Normal Mode raids away from them.

Not just that but it's a good source for players who have just joined the game or returned to get geared up quickly and see the content.

I will never seen people's gripes with LFR. If anything it gives you more to do in the game, and it helps out a MASSIVE part of the community see the content and experience the story.

[Lilija]

If vanilla sucked so much, why the game was growing continuously instead of failing completely? Same with BC. At the end of BC, WoW had 10 Mio subscribers. If the game was so much fail in the past, why so many people had played?

Because there was no competition back then and WoW was the best mmo on the market.

---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 07:22 PM ----------

Actually progression raiding has dropped drastically since Cata, which coincidentally enough is when LFR came out, people take the road of least resistance and well..........you can sit there and do nothing in LFR and still see content and get gear.

Oh and before you say it, I hate LFR and do normal raiding with my guild Friday and Saturday nights.

Well, if for some people LFR is enough then it's their choise. What's the point of forcing them into anything more organized? Besides, LFR is not whole content and by far not the whole gear. You can see the boss models, learn the story, but won't really feel the boss mechanics and won't get the best gear.

Blizzard is giving people a choise. Choise is good. Plus having people who don't really feel raiding in your raiding group can be painfull for everyone.

[KrazyK923]

I'm not sure how the argument that LFR caused a decline in progression raiding makes sense. Nor have I actually seen evidence supporting this argument.

People who only do LFR weren't part of the progression raiding scene anyway so...

*scratches head*

[Deleted]

I'm not sure how the argument that LFR caused a decline in progression raiding makes sense. Nor have I actually seen evidence supporting this argument.

People who only do LFR weren't part of the progression raiding scene anyway so...

*scratches head*

Those people might have found guilds but because it's so much easier to use LFR there's no point, so new raiders are even harder to find. And because they are so hard to find, there are less active guilds for people who might want to join one. It's a vicious cycle that Blizz can only correct by making guild raiding more rewarding.

[Osmeric]

Actually progression raiding has dropped drastically since Cata, which coincidentally enough is when LFR came out, people take the road of least resistance and well..........you can sit there and do nothing in LFR and still see content and get gear.

They also tuned up the difficulty of normal mode raids.

If you push someone and they fall into a hole, the problem isn't that there was a hole -- it's that you pushed them.

[Mawnix]

They also tuned up the difficulty of normal mode raids.

If you push someone and they fall into a hole, the problem isn't that there was a hole -- it's that you pushed them.

Actually IMO raids have become easier since Cata.

[yjmark]

Actually IMO raids have become easier since Cata.

Really? I find them significantly harder. WotLK - definitely the easiest raids ever. Cata - next easiest. MoP - more along the TBC level of difficulty imho.

I'm still raiding with the same group of folks since TBC, and I would say we are definitely struggling more in MoP relative to Cata or WotLK.

[Deleted]

How did Wrath have more "adventuring" than MoP? I'm a bit confused by what you mean. I guess I don't really remember adventuring any more back in Wrath than I do today. In fact, I would go the opposite route. I feel like I'm adventuring much more now than back in Wrath since there is so much more to do in MoP compared to WotLK.

I can assure u that not so much of the Wrath content was exposed and played by the beta testers BEFORE Wrath release. MoP had every detail of what u could expect advertised on sites such as this, down to what colour the socks Garrosh would be wearing...

Every raid boss had full tutorials out before MoP was even out, thats the Wow way of playing through the content now. it wasnt like that Back in Wrath/TBC days. I dont just mean raiding, even what quests u could do and how to do them were all posted up before the game was released... not much adventuring when all the content is published and advertised.

[yjmark]

I can assure u that not so much of the Wrath content was exposed and played by the beta testers BEFORE Wrath release. MoP had every detail of what u could expect advertised on sites such as this, down to what colour the socks Garrosh would be wearing...

Every raid boss had full tutorials out before MoP was even out, thats the Wow way of playing through the content now. it wasnt like that Back in Wrath/TBC days. I dont just mean raiding, even what quests u could do and how to do them were all posted up before the game was released... not much adventuring when all the content is published and advertised.

Your assurance is false because every detail of WotlK was already out prior to launches. Every raid boss did have tutorials. And they were faceroll easy relative to previous raid content.

That aside, if your major complaint is that there is more information on the internet.....not sure how you can blame the game for that. If you want adventure - stop reading up on the stuff ahead of time. /shrug

[Maximus Testiculos]

Most of the stuff you complain are options that you can skip or just things that have been made better over years.

[Deleted]

That aside, if your major complaint is that there is more information on the internet.....not sure how you can blame the game for that. If you want adventure - stop reading up on the stuff ahead of time. /shrug

Im actually talking about how the game is designed overall.

Back in Vanilla/TBC the game was designed with adventuring in mind. Now its not.

The entire MMORPG culture was about adventuring. Blizzard has taken Wow very far from that original concept. Thats my overall point.

[yjmark]

Im actually talking about how the game is designed overall.

Back in Vanilla/TBC the game was designed with adventuring in mind. Now its not.

The entire MMORPG culture was about adventuring. Blizzard has taken Wow very far from that original concept. Thats my overall point.

So what was it in Vanilla/TBC that made it designed with "adventuring" in mind? That is what I'm trying to understand. Because I did not feel like things were more of an adventure back then. I just feel like things were newer back then. Maybe the adventure is gone because you've been playing for so long?

[Deleted]

So what was it in Vanilla/TBC that made it designed with "adventuring" in mind? That is what I'm trying to understand. Because I did not feel like things were more of an adventure back then. I just feel like things were newer back then. Maybe the adventure is gone because you've been playing for so long?

Explaining what 'adventuring' is is actually very difficult. Exploring and discovery is simply one aspect of it. I would say that the feeling your character was 'at risk' throughout its entire journey goes some way to explaining it. I remember dying ALOT when levelling and needing to ask for help from my guild alot too. Now u can level 1 handed and can probably count the amount of times your health goes below half on one hand before u hit lev90...

Sure thats an exaggeration but it gives a vision of my point.