Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Jaynith]

Well, assuming you are not in Special Forces of any branch, the military spending $10k on a 1 or 2 day offensive driving course for you is pretty ridiculous.

I said 2 weeks, and I did not say offensive driving. The offensive/defensive driving was 2-3 days, and that one wasn't $10K. The 2 week trip was. Being SPECOPS or not does not dictate the cost of a training course, the course itself does. You said I wouldn't be sent to a course costing $10K, I said otherwise as I personally attended courses costing that much. And for the record, SEALS aren't as elite as you think....there's 10 times as many SEALS as there are, oh say, AF CCT for example.

[Svifnymr]

Yeah, basically that's what I was wondering about. And they are legal, as the video claims?

Bump firing is you holding your finger steady and pulling the gun forward so that the trigger hits your finger. The gun recoils backward and you're still pulling forward so you pull it again into your trigger finger.

As long as the ATF says they are. (As long as the ATF says that they don't constructively make an automatic weapon according to the law.)

Smart companies get ATF approval before going into production. And yes, the ATF has certainly approved some of them.

Like I said, I wouldn't oppose a change to the law that would add sliding bump-fire stocks to the list of NFA items to be heavily regulated, because they serve no purpose other than to bypass the laws on automatic firearms with a similar end result.

In the past, ATF has ruled that the slide-fire stock is not a machine gun. The company then produced a bunch, sold a bunch, and ATF then changed their mind and said it's a machine gun. (Confiscating a part of the stock.)



Bumpfiring lets you fire faster, but by the nature of pulling your gun forward with your offhand, really throws off accuracy. There are folks that can bumpfire with accuracy, sure, because they've practiced a lot in that style, but most of them would probably be much more accurate if they fired "normal".

[Tinykong]

I said 2 weeks, and I did not say offensive driving. The offensive/defensive driving was 2-3 days, and that one wasn't $10K. The 2 week trip was. Being SPECOPS or not does not dictate the cost of a training course, the course itself does. You said I wouldn't be sent to a course costing $10K, I said otherwise as I personally attended courses costing that much. And for the record, SEALS aren't as elite as you think....there's 10 times as many SEALS as there are, oh say, AF CCT for example.

Why did you bring up a standard training course that costs $10k then, when I made a specific example of a specialized training course that wouldn't be offered to regular military units? My point wasn't the dollar figure for "training," it was that $10k for a couple of days of highly specialized training is not accessible to regular military. Your comparing apples to oranges.

We don't need to get into a pissing match over which branch is better, or what unit is better, it's pointless. What Dead and I said still rings true: SEALs receive more funding, have access to different and more specialized equipment, are free to do a lot of things outside normal regs, and receive a lot more highly specialized training than normal military units, and even some other units in Spec Ops community.

[xylophone]

Thats nothing specific to SEALS. Army infantry is using M-14s in the desert as we speak. Is it standard issue? Not in the last 40 years. Does it happen? Yes. My point is, there isnt anything particularly special about the weaponry SPECOPS gets, its pretty standard stuff...they just tinker it to how they want it.

This is where ya lost it. The different variants of M14 are standard issue to DMs and other personnel.

[Svifnymr]

Exactly. You might as well ban bayonets.

To be fair, in the original part where Deadvolcano's defended that "pistol grip" was a functional advantage, he also defended the inclusion of bayonet lugs.

[Jaynith]

Why did you bring up a standard training course that costs $10k then, when I made a specific example of a specialized training course that wouldn't be offered to regular military units? My point wasn't the dollar figure for "training," it was that $10k for a couple of days of highly specialized training is not accessible to regular military. Your comparing apples to oranges.

We don't need to get into a pissing match over which branch is better, or what unit is better, it's pointless. What Dead and I said still rings true: SEALs receive more funding, have access to different and more specialized equipment, are free to do a lot of things outside normal regs, and receive a lot more highly specialized training than normal military units, and even some other units in Spec Ops community.

The argument about more highly specialized training is a fallacy. My particular career field gives me more highly specialized training...in MY field. Just as they get more highly specialized training...in THEIR field. So yeah, its apples to apples. No, I wont get their specialized training, much like they wont receive mine. I suppose it all depends on how you look at it.

This is where ya lost it. The different variants of M14 are standard issue to DMs and other personnel.

M-16 variants are standard issue, not M-14. M-14s ARE being issued, just not nearly as much as M-16s, M-4s, etc.

[Rocko9]

M-16 variants are standard issue, not M-14. M-14s ARE being issued, just not nearly as much as M-16s, M-4s, etc.

They are standard issue as a DMR. The DM will use the M14, or the variant that gamers will know, the M21.

[xylophone]

They are standard issue as a DMR. The DM will use the M14, or the variant that gamers will know, the M21.

The M14, M21, M25, and M39 are all variants currently used by the U.S. military that are all M14 rifles.

[Eroginous]

http://www.amazon.com/Finishing-Scho.../dp/0609810464
http://www.amazon.com/SEAL-Team-Six-.../dp/1250006953

Just like I thought, more conjecture. The personal accounts of a couple Seals does not include the personal accounts of all seals, or even the personal accounts of other service members in other branches. Making a blanket statement such as 'Navy Seals are the rich kids of the military, they get whatever they want' is highly fallacious and ignorant.

[Deadvolcanoes]

Just like I thought, more conjecture. The personal accounts of a couple Seals does not include the personal accounts of all seals, or even the personal accounts of other service members in other branches. Making a blanket statement such as 'Navy Seals are the rich kids of the military, they get whatever they want' is highly fallacious and ignorant.

And your claim that the most elite special operations unit in the military is running around with the same equipment as our general infantry...where exactly are you getting that information from?

[xylophone]

And your claim that the most elite special operations unit in the military is running around with the same equipment as our general infantry...where exactly are you getting that information from?

They aren't, but they don't just pick whatever they want. AFAIK they still have to use military issue weapons, look up the current U.S. military small arms list on wikipedia. They just have access to more options, like Mk16 and Mk17s and HK416's.

[Poodles]

Thats nothing specific to SEALS. Army infantry is using M-14s in the desert as we speak. Is it standard issue? Not in the last 40 years. Does it happen? Yes. My point is, there isnt anything particularly special about the weaponry SPECOPS gets, its pretty standard stuff...they just tinker it to how they want it.

Bah, late to the thread on this, but the M14 was never completely shelved, it just was turned into a main battle rifle for a marksman to use in several forms (newest one I can think of being the Mk 14 EBR).

Also, on the note of pistol grips vs traditional stock, the tradition stock allows you to prone much easier and have a lower profile to shoot from. The same reason snipers don't use huge box magazines. The Mk 14 EBR uses a pistol grip because it's used in a different roll in urban warfare.

The main point is that pistol grips don't do crap to the way the weapon actually functions apart from the way the weapon is designed for ergonomics. It's the equivalent of banning weapons with charging handles in easy to rear places or with cheek rests.

Bump firing is you holding your finger steady and pulling the gun forward so that the trigger hits your finger. The gun recoils backward and you're still pulling forward so you pull it again into your trigger finger.



In the past, ATF has ruled that the slide-fire stock is not a machine gun. The company then produced a bunch, sold a bunch, and ATF then changed their mind and said it's a machine gun. (Confiscating a part of the stock.)



Bumpfiring lets you fire faster, but by the nature of pulling your gun forward with your offhand, really throws off accuracy. There are folks that can bumpfire with accuracy, sure, because they've practiced a lot in that style, but most of them would probably be much more accurate if they fired "normal".

The original bumpfire stocks that got banned had springs to push the weapon back forward instead of you pulling it forward with your hand. Very different animal.

And your claim that the most elite special operations unit in the military is running around with the same equipment as our general infantry...where exactly are you getting that information from?

Because they do. The main reason they do is because it's easier to get ahold of parts and supplies for said weapons. They do mess with the weapons more (wrapping them in gaffer's tape to make sure they don't shine) but that's about it. The exception is that they also get access to weapons from the area they're going to be working in, for instance some do use AK-47s because of the availability of ammo.

The "money is no object" part doesn't really make sense since training and muscle memory based off of their existing platforms is a large part of what they do. It's the reason the HK416 has the same controls as the M16. Could changing the controls make the weapon better? You bet your ass they could, but if someone that's trained and used an M16 for years picked up an HK416, they can use it as effectively as their old M16, and that's the point.

Regardless I think we're digressing into a debate on weapon designs which has no real basis in reality.

Ever since the Stg. 44, we have an "assault rifle" and the main point is to have a weapon that:
- Fires an intermediate round between tradition military rifles and SMG's
- Can fire full auto
- Is light and maneuverable like a SMG but with more power

The main point of that is full auto. While modern sporting rifles may LOOK like assault rifles, functionally they're nothing of the sorts. Honestly, the complex actions of these rifles were designed for full auto use is completely wasted and pointless on a semi-auto rifle. The main reason they're so successful is that they're cheap and this is because the military uses them so parts are abundant. Hell, not to mention many former soldiers like they because it's what they trained with.

/digression

[Cthulhu 2020]

Jon Stewart yet again says it best.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/486930#i0,p4,d0

[ugotownd]

Jon Stewart yet again says it best.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/486930#i0,p4,d0

Yet again people turning to a paid comedian for a valid view of anything. You bash Fox news as invalid yet a comedian is the end all of knowledge and truth. It takes a special kind of person to even find him funny in the slightest of ways.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Yet again people turning to a paid comedian for a valid view of anything. It takes a special kind of person to even find him funny in the slightest of ways.

Yeah, the gross hypocrisy at the NRA convention didn't happen because you personally don't like Jon Stewart. Makes sense.

I do kind of like how tongue in cheek insults are allowed on MMO-C forums, but direct insults aren't. It makes passing off insulting someone because you can't directly address or refute their point so much easier to pass under moderation radar.

[obdigore]

Yeah, the gross hypocrisy at the NRA convention didn't happen because you personally don't like Jon Stewart. Makes sense.

I do kind of like how tongue in cheek insults are allowed on MMO-C forums, but direct insults aren't. It makes passing off insulting someone because you can't directly address or refute their point so much easier to pass under moderation radar.

"Stop pretending that background checks are the last barrier between a free America and government sponsored mom-rape."

So ah... has there been any argument that isn't a slippery slope against closing the 'gun show loophole'? An argument for why we wouldn't expect background checks on all gun purchases?

[Cthulhu 2020]

"Stop pretending that background checks are the last barrier between a free America and government sponsored mom-rape."

So ah... has there been any argument that isn't a slippery slope against closing the 'gun show loophole'? An argument for why we wouldn't expect background checks on all gun purchases?

Jon Stewart, relevant political comedian when he's making fun of liberals. Paid comedian shill when he's pointing out NRA hypocrisy.

[Deadvolcanoes]

Because they do.

Let me re-ask the question since you didn't answer it. Where exactly are you getting that information?

I've read quite a few books detailing the differences in equipment, from body armor, pants, boots, to more advanced equipment. They even have their own knife named after the SEALs, the SOG SEAL knife 2000.

If you've read "No Easy Day," you would know exactly what type of equipment the SEAL's have access too, even though such information is supposed to be classified. I mean the four tube NVG cost $65,000 a piece. General infantry certainly isn't running around with those. But guess who is? The "rich kids of the military."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...-gear-12583172

[Tinykong]

Just like I thought, more conjecture. The personal accounts of a couple Seals does not include the personal accounts of all seals, or even the personal accounts of other service members in other branches. Making a blanket statement such as 'Navy Seals are the rich kids of the military, they get whatever they want' is highly fallacious and ignorant.

So, we're going to go with the postings of an anonymous internet forum user over the account of basically every non-fiction book on the subject? I think not.

[Eroginous]

Let me re-ask the question since you didn't answer it. Where exactly are you getting that information?

I've read quite a few books detailing the differences in equipment, from body armor, pants, boots, to more advanced equipment. They even have their own knife named after the SEALs, the SOG SEAL knife 2000.

If you've read "No Easy Day," you would know exactly what type of equipment the SEAL's have access too, even though such information is supposed to be classified. I mean the four tube NVG cost $65,000 a piece. General infantry certainly isn't running around with those. But guess who is? The "rich kids of the military."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...-gear-12583172

So, we're going to go with the postings of an anonymous internet forum user over the account of basically every non-fiction book on the subject? I think not.

The mistake you kids are making is in thinking that Seals are the 'special snowflake' of the military.

They are not. Just because they are spec ops, doesn't mean they have access to anything that other branches of the military do not.

That's the logical fallacy.

Jon Stewart, relevant political comedian when he's making fun of liberals. Paid comedian shill when he's pointing out NRA hypocrisy.

John Stewart gets paid to be funny. He doesn't get paid to be politically accurate or relevant. While he's incredibly good at being funny, he's not a politician. Having something funny to say about the NRA doesn't make his opinion regarding politics any more valid.

While I can completely agree with his anti NRA remarks, the NRA isn't the be-all, end-all of gun ownership.