Fire Mage Guide

[mrgreenthump]

It was already ridiculously strong with Heroic/TF Hero gear.
What do you think is going to happen with the next tier ?

Crit/CM will obviously be nerfed/changed to be kept in line.

Tbh if anything, combustion is getting out of hand atm..

To add: A simple crit nerf wont take combustion being too strong away, a nerf to combustion would, and then crit wouldn't need to be nerfed.. Nerfing crit makes fire without gear unplayable again, nerfing combustion makes mages less strong, but nothing but dps is taken away.

[Polarthief]

Tbh if anything, combustion is getting out of hand atm..

To add: A simple crit nerf wont take combustion being too strong away, a nerf to combustion would, and then crit wouldn't need to be nerfed.. Nerfing crit makes fire without gear unplayable again, nerfing combustion makes mages less strong, but nothing but dps is taken away.

Another nerf to Combustion and we have 0 DPS cooldowns.

[isadorr]

Tbh if anything, combustion is getting out of hand atm..

To add: A simple crit nerf wont take combustion being too strong away, a nerf to combustion would, and then crit wouldn't need to be nerfed.. Nerfing crit makes fire without gear unplayable again, nerfing combustion makes mages less strong, but nothing but dps is taken away.

Nerfing CM hurts lower geared players more than anyone. Gc has been asked on his Twitter about nerfs to Fire and he asked why they thought Fire should be nerfed, there was no answer to the tweet. I honestly feel safe for 5.4 and believe that Fire/Arcane will stay the best Dps specs with some fights being great for arcane standing still and other fights even better for Fire with combustions being high and the haste from the 4pc T16.

[Polarthief]

Nerfing CM hurts lower geared players more than anyone. Gc has been asked on his Twitter about nerfs to Fire and he asked why they thought Fire should be nerfed, there was no answer to the tweet. I honestly feel safe for 5.4 and believe that Fire/Arcane will stay the best Dps specs with some fights being great for arcane standing still and other fights even better for Fire with combustions being high and the haste from the 4pc T16.

You mean the 2P. 4P is IB gives free Pyro crit (both bonuses are garbage anyways)

[Methusula]

Yeah, I'm not convinced CM is going to be be nerfed. Also not sure it will be Combustion.

I'm thinking more along the lines of bombs being brought down, and a flat nerf to Fireball and Pyroblast.

[Polarthief]

Yeah, I'm not convinced CM is going to be be nerfed. Also not sure it will be Combustion.

I'm thinking more along the lines of bombs being brought down, and a flat nerf to Fireball and Pyroblast.

Bring down bombs? Then Frost and Arcane get nerfed for no reason.

Nerfing Fireball anymore would make it useless to cast over Scorch (and with the higher Crit and Fire 2P T16, Scorch might actually become our new filler spell, especially if Fireball gets a nerf). Nerfing Pyro would make sense, but... ick to that.

[Methusula]

Bring down bombs? Then Frost and Arcane get nerfed for no reason.

Nerfing Fireball anymore would make it useless to cast over Scorch (and with the higher Crit and Fire 2P T16, Scorch might actually become our new filler spell, especially if Fireball gets a nerf). Nerfing Pyro would make sense, but... ick to that.

It's not for no reason though. They have already said they don't like the unintended consequences of buffing the bombs, and that it was just a temporary fix.I fully expect that this will happen. I also believe Frost and Arcane will be compensated elsewhere.

I think they want Arcane to actually be the turret option with RoP being the optimal talent. I expect that with a bomb nerf, that single target will be buffed by a fair amount to make up for the heavy movement we see in SoO. Do crap dps while moving, do exceptional dps while planted after the ramp up. The new tier set bonus reinforces that idea.

As for Frost, we have already speculated that the change to Mastery was to make the spec less bursty in PvP while paving the way for a PvE buff. Removing the ramp-up of Frostbolt and buffing Mastery would do a lot for Frost PvE.

As for Scorch, they can very easily nerf that too.

[Polarthief]

It's not for no reason though. They have already said they don't like the unintended consequences of buffing the bombs, and that it was just a temporary fix.I fully expect that this will happen. I also believe Frost and Arcane will be compensated elsewhere.

I think they want Arcane to actually be the turret option with RoP being the optimal talent. I expect that with a bomb nerf, that single target will be buffed by a fair amount to make up for the heavy movement we see in SoO. Do crap dps while moving, do exceptional dps while planted after the ramp up. The new tier set bonus reinforces that idea.

As for Frost, we have already speculated that the change to Mastery was to make the spec less bursty in PvP while paving the way for a PvE buff. Removing the ramp-up of Frostbolt and buffing Mastery would do a lot for Frost PvE.

As for Scorch, they can very easily nerf that too.

So they should buff AE/FS/Blizz even more because they're pretty shit, or stop making fights that require Multidotting. Frost also HAS to be compensated because it's currently unplayable in PvP, and in higher gear levels, it's super-outclassed by Arcane, Fire, and almost any other DPS spec, and it will only get worse in 5.4 if nothing changes.

IMO idk why they don't make RoP have 20% damage or something. It's significantly harder to keep up than Invo, and the only benefit you get so far is -1 global (not even) at a huge risk (Also, Frost has 0 mana issues because you do sometimes lose some Invo time with Time Warp/good Meta procs due to running out of mana with Invo)

That's just speculation though. They've given 0 hinting as to what will happen.

I would cry if they did. Scorch is the main thing that makes Fire fun to me.


But now we're talking about Frost and Arcane in a Fire thread, so we should probably continue things in 5.4 Discussion, if there's more to discuss

[isadorr]

So they should buff AE/FS/Blizz even more because they're pretty shit, or stop making fights that require Multidotting. Frost also HAS to be compensated because it's currently unplayable in PvP, and in higher gear levels, it's super-outclassed by Arcane, Fire, and almost any other DPS spec, and it will only get worse in 5.4 if nothing changes.

IMO idk why they don't make RoP have 20% damage or something. It's significantly harder to keep up than Invo, and the only benefit you get so far is -1 global (not even) at a huge risk (Also, Frost has 0 mana issues because you do sometimes lose some Invo time with Time Warp/good Meta procs due to running out of mana with Invo)

That's just speculation though. They've given 0 hinting as to what will happen.

I would cry if they did. Scorch is the main thing that makes Fire fun to me.


But now we're talking about Frost and Arcane in a Fire thread, so we should probably continue things in 5.4 Discussion, if there's more to discuss :P

They have to do nothing for Frost as frost has always been the bad spec when compared to the others. Arcane will be the spec to use on less movement fights and Fire will scale the best with great dmg for movement fights. Check GC twitter today on Hunter's, he said that in the game pets shouldn't do much damage and it should come the toon itself which makes the water ele not looking too important.

They havent changed Frost this tier as it is at the bottom of most charts with months to go till 5.4, so if that is the case and they dont change it now, why will they change it then, i have seen Zero frost mages on the PTR, even in a pug.

[Polarthief]

They have to do nothing for Frost as frost has always been the bad spec when compared to the others. Arcane will be the spec to use on less movement fights and Fire will scale the best with great dmg for movement fights.

So they do nothing and now Frost is literally a worthless spec for everything except low-gear Mages because atm on PTR, it's worthless for PvP too.

Yeah, that seems smart to do. Let's have a spec like every class did back in Vanilla. Use your noggin a bit; they aren't going to leave it as is.

Check GC twitter today on Hunter's, he said that in the game pets shouldn't do much damage and it should come the toon itself which makes the water ele not looking too important.

Most likely referring to BM, and even if he's not, this is irrelevant information. I wouldn't give a single shit if they nerfed or even removed my Welly, as long as the spec gets compensated for that, too.

[isadorr]

So they do nothing and now Frost is literally a worthless spec for everything except low-gear Mages because atm on PTR, it's worthless for PvP too.

Yeah, that seems smart to do. Let's have a spec like every class did back in Vanilla. Use your noggin a bit; they aren't going to leave it as is.



Most likely referring to BM, and even if he's not, this is irrelevant information. I wouldn't give a single shit if they nerfed or even removed my Welly, as long as the spec gets compensated for that, too.

Buffing frost for Pve leaves headaches for them on the PVP side which is why I am so glad that Fire isn't a huge issues in PVP. They buff Frost to the same damage as Fire and Arcane leads to massive problems in Pvp, wont happen. Why havent they buffed frost this tier? Frost has been behind for a long time depending on your progression.

Ya having a class that does well in 2 out of three specs is just horrible, a lot of classes would be happy with two out of three. Look at many classes that only have one strong dps spec and mages have two out of three, one for movement and one for standing still,,and frost for pvp. That sounds pretty good for the mage class.

[Methusula]

They have to do nothing for Frost as frost has always been the bad spec when compared to the others. Arcane will be the spec to use on less movement fights and Fire will scale the best with great dmg for movement fights. Check GC twitter today on Hunter's, he said that in the game pets shouldn't do much damage and it should come the toon itself which makes the water ele not looking too important.

They havent changed Frost this tier as it is at the bottom of most charts with months to go till 5.4, so if that is the case and they dont change it now, why will they change it then, i have seen Zero frost mages on the PTR, even in a pug.

I have no idea why you think they haven't changed Frost. They are completely revamping their Mastery. Kind of a big deal. Frost. Will. Be. Viable.

The only legitimate question is, what is the niche they intend the spec to fill? Fire can be the mobile DPS spec. Arcane can be the turret spec. Frost needs an identity that allows it to excel somewhere relevant. I suppose it would be acceptable if it was the spec that bridged the gap in terms of turret vs. movement. As long as DPS was consistent from encounter to encounter, I could see there being value in that.

---------- Post added 2013-06-29 at 07:20 PM ----------

Buffing frost for Pve leaves headaches for them on the PVP side which is why I am so glad that Fire isn't a huge issues in PVP. They buff Frost to the same damage as Fire and Arcane leads to massive problems in Pvp, wont happen. Why havent they buffed frost this tier? Frost has been behind for a long time depending on your progression.

Ya having a class that does well in 2 out of three specs is just horrible, a lot of classes would be happy with two out of three. Look at many classes that only have one strong dps spec and mages have two out of three, one for movement and one for standing still,,and frost for pvp. That sounds pretty good for the mage class.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that they have already shown their hand regarding Frost PvP. They seriously nerfed damage to frozen targets. This logically opens up the possibility to buff sustained damage which still has value in PvP and will allow them to more easily tune it for PvE.

Edit: we are straying off topic here. This is a Fire thread. We can discuss the other specs in their respective threads.

[isadorr]

I have no idea why you think they haven't changed Frost. They are completely revamping their Mastery. Kind of a big deal. Frost. Will. Be. Viable.

The only legitimate question is, what is the niche they intend the spec to fill? Fire can be the mobile DPS spec. Arcane can be the turret spec. Frost needs an identity that allows it to excel somewhere relevant. I suppose it would be acceptable if it was the spec that bridged the gap in terms of turret vs. movement. As long as DPS was consistent from encounter to encounter, I could see there being value in that.

Ya when Blizzard revamps a class it always work out correctly, right? Progression guilds are going to want the best specs so if Frost isn't ahead or at least competitive in 5.4 it wont matter what Blizzard does with the class. I can see Blizzard fixing pvp for Frost as that is the only place Frost ever really had a niche. With Fire the best scaling spec in the game, it will scale like crazy so they would have to make Frost scale the same way to keep up or.....it will fall behind just like this tier leaving no one playing it but casuals or guilds not worried about progression. Frost will be fixed for Pvp and will do ok at the beginning of 5.4 then fall far behind with Arcane shining with massive amounts of SP and Fire with SP and Crit.

[aycheff]

I have a question about the inbetween AT combustion (basically your 2nd one). Whats the best way to handle it? Sometimes I get lucky with trinkets proccing around the time the 2nd combust comes up (given me decent ignites for the combust), and sometimes I'm waiting forever for the trinket to proc and they just don't happen, so I just go with what I feel decent.

Basically what is the most optimal way to handle greed vs conservative on the 2nd combust? I usually never have this problem on pull combust since trinket are GENREALLY up. Only on the latter.

[Methusula]

I have a question about the inbetween AT combustion (basically your 2nd one). Whats the best way to handle it? Sometimes I get lucky with trinkets proccing around the time the 2nd combust comes up (given me decent ignites for the combust), and sometimes I'm waiting forever for the trinket to proc and they just don't happen, so I just go with what I feel decent.

Basically what is the most optimal way to handle greed vs conservative on the 2nd combust? I usually never have this problem on pull combust since trinket are GENREALLY up. Only on the latter.

it's generally accepted that you don't hold on to your Combustion after it is off CD. The only exception I could see to that is a vulnerability phase coming up, or some other mechanics that are fight specific, or in the case where waiting a bit wouldn't change the total amount of Combustions you get off in a given encounter.

[isadorr]

So they do nothing and now Frost is literally a worthless spec for everything except low-gear Mages because atm on PTR, it's worthless for PvP too.

Yeah, that seems smart to do. Let's have a spec like every class did back in Vanilla. Use your noggin a bit; they aren't going to leave it as is.




Most likely referring to BM, and even if he's not, this is irrelevant information. I wouldn't give a single shit if they nerfed or even removed my Welly, as long as the spec gets compensated for that, too.

Polar you talk about Frost as if it is the only way to go. I mean you don't even mention to the person asking for tips on council to go Fire and do more dps because you feel it isnt important. A person isnt asking about Frost but the best tips for the best dps which isnt Frost as frost is nowhere close to Fire on that fight without or without Rng. The Top Frost parse for council Norma mode, which is what the person was asking about, Normal mode would be ranked #188th on the Fire rankings. It is great you enjoy Frost but your advice is misleading to others who don't know bette and incorrect when someone asks for tips on a boss fight. First think you would do is give them the best dps spec for that fight, which is Fire.

[Deleted]

You mean the 2P. 4P is IB gives free Pyro crit (both bonuses are garbage anyways)

The new 4pc is actually not that bad, if IB apply's a buff to guarantee pyro crit. If so, you would have that buff going into AT and then again when resetting at, ensuring you a crit twice in the AT rotation both times at a point where you have HS+hu, it ensures another HS without having to blow PoM. It also ensures at least 2x HS pyro crits within the 4 we want, and there is a pretty big chance we'll get at least a 3rd(with our crit ratings)

I am pretty sure they wont nerf CM again because its such a disasters for low ilvl players. And i hope they wont nerf combustion again :/. But i also think they are going to do something to nerf us a little.


Edit: Any one else jizzing over the new trinket with 84% increased crit dmg for 20s ? <3

[Polarthief]

Buffing frost for Pve leaves headaches for them on the PVP side which is why I am so glad that Fire isn't a huge issues in PVP. They buff Frost to the same damage as Fire and Arcane leads to massive problems in Pvp, wont happen. Why havent they buffed frost this tier? Frost has been behind for a long time depending on your progression.

Ya having a class that does well in 2 out of three specs is just horrible, a lot of classes would be happy with two out of three. Look at many classes that only have one strong dps spec and mages have two out of three, one for movement and one for standing still,,and frost for pvp. That sounds pretty good for the mage class.

You don't seem to understand that with the Frost PvP nerf, Frost is now literally worthless in EVERY aspect except low-gear PvE.

Look at any other class that has at least 2 of any role (DPS/Heal). Every one of them is good/competitive in some level, either PvP or PvE. They can't leave a spec useless for every aspect.

[Methusula]

Edit: Any one else jizzing over the new trinket with 84% increased crit dmg for 20s ? <3

It is what UVLS should have been. The crit isn't even the big deal, it's 84% more haste and mastery on a guaranteed Pyro crit chain. HUGE Combustions inc. This is another reason why I think the Fire nerf will be more of a direct damage blanket nerf. Combustion will naturally be lower without directly nerfing it and without sacrificing the Fire gameplay by restricting crit.

Edit: damnit, I forgot it was crit DAMAGE and not percentage. Oops >.<

[isadorr]

The new 4pc is actually not that bad, if IB apply's a buff to guarantee pyro crit. If so, you would have that buff going into AT and then again when resetting at, ensuring you a crit twice in the AT rotation both times at a point where you have HS+hu, it ensures another HS without having to blow PoM. It also ensures at least 2x HS pyro crits within the 4 we want, and there is a pretty big chance we'll get at least a 3rd(with our crit ratings)

I am pretty sure they wont nerf CM again because its such a disasters for low ilvl players. And i hope they wont nerf combustion again :/. But i also think they are going to do something to nerf us a little.


Edit: Any one else jizzing over the new trinket with 84% increased crit dmg for 20s ? <3

Amazing combustions.......and Pyro chains.