New Frost Mastery: Icicles!

[jtmzac]

While I disagree with the third one (because I don't know what the hell he means by that), he is correct about the rest of it.

I think its his way of saying they still want frost to stack haste.

[TyrantWave]

I love the look of this. Just because throwing ice shards from above your head is badass. (Also, reminds me of Edea)

Anyway, a situation I can think of for banking them:

Save a single FoF charge (Obviously, spend if you get 2 so as to not cap), and on bosses such as the last one in the boat heroic scenario, where they take increased damage for a short period of time - unload your FoF + Icicles then.

But that's just a small scenario boss, although if there are cases of a short period of burst damage, sitting on one FoF charge to make the best use of them could be a small DPS increase.

During orb and stuff where FoF is constantly proccing, obviously sitting on a charge is useless. I can't see this being a damage *loss* however outside of that - at most, you're just delaying a single charge for certain periods of time (But spending all 2-stacks instantly). Similar to Conflag for Destro locks.

[jtmzac]

ISave a single FoF charge (Obviously, spend if you get 2 so as to not cap), and on bosses such as the last one in the boat heroic scenario, where they take increased damage for a short period of time - unload your FoF + Icicles then.

Icicles don't benefit from damage modifiers specifically so that you can't save them for phases when bosses take more damage.

[Zatetic]

We're currently haste>mastery>crit at 530+ and we'll have trouble not going over the crit cap next tier.

Where int fits into all this is going to be interesting as we're not really sure where it fits in now.

The crit soft cap only provides 100% crit chance against frozen targets. You can still stack crit well over that and that increases every normal casts crit chance.

What I'm saying is imo for 5.4, it seems like we'll be going haste to 50% and then just all out crit because our normal cast frostbolts, and wellybolts are more valuable to us as crits, but the mastery isnt valuable enough to prioritise over crit.

[Vynestra]

All the following information copy/pasted from Lhivera's Library (http://lhiveras-library.com/content/...g-live-icicles). Although nothing is confirmed, Lhivera is one of the Mage MVPs and DOES get insider information, but I hope this will clear some things up.

[Note: Anything in italics is directly copy/pasted from Lhivera's website. Anything not italicized is just my notes/comments]


*Waterbolt damage is being increased by 9%. Again, if you previously had +40% Mastery, this is a reduction of about 22%. But as with Frostbolt, see below for the way the new Mastery affects it.

This was hidden on the datamine apparently.


How Icicles get thrown:

- When you cast Ice Lance, you will immediately begin to discharge your Icicles. They will launch at the target the Ice Lance hit, at the rate of one per second (adjusted by haste), until they are gone.

- If you generate a new Icicle when you already have five, the oldest will immediately launch at the target hit by the spell that generated the new Icicle, and the new one will be stored.

So there will NOT be any "saving" Icicles. You will just do more damage when you fling a FoF'd IL.


While not a vital part of the mechanics or damage, here's some visual info:

- The Icicles hover around the head, kind of like Soul Shards.
- They float in launch position, and when launched, they shoot out of their slots, looking much like little Ice Lances, with a similar travel speed.
- There is some concern that the whole thing is too visually "busy," and the devs are interested in feedback on this point.

Reminds me of Irelia with her Transcendent Blades... (More information below the picture!)
[Note: Picture is too large to see the entire thing without scrolling. For those who care about a LoL reference, scroll to the right )




Some stuff that gets "accomplished" (according to Lhiv):

- It makes the value of Mastery much more similar in PvE and PvP.
- It preserves some of the kit of Frostburn by beefing up Ice Lance damage.
*- It preserves and enhances the "hasty" kit of Frost without actually adding any haste.
- It does what it does in a less bursty manner than Frostburn.

While I disagree with the third one (because I don't know what the hell he means by that), he is correct about the rest of it.


However, here's what really pisses me off, from his Q&A section:

Q: Are Icicles modified by damage-increasing effects or debuffs?
A: Only insofar as the spell that creates them is affected. If a debuff increases your Frostbolt's damage by 5%, it will create an Icicle that is 5% stronger. But the Icicle will not get an additional 5% increase directly from the debuff.

Q: Are Icicles modified by damage-decreasing effects?
A: Yes. If your target is taking 50% less damage, it will also take 50% less damage from Icicles.

It doesn't make sense that Icicles will be reduced, but not increased... (Ignite works both ways, IIRC)


One last point from his website:

Q: Will Alter Time restore Icicles state?
A: Yes. You could have a full stack, Alter Time, cast Ice Lance so that your stack is expended, and the stack will be restored when Alter Time expires.

That's actually really awesome (if true) as it doesn't indirectly nerf Alter Time (Your procs hit harder with live Mastery, so Alter Time would be "nerfed" if Icicles didn't carry over).

Basically they aren't double dipping on buffs/debuffs lets take horridon for example

He takes 200% more, but lets say 100% just for the example in increased damage at the end of the fight, lets say your frostbolt does 100k normally.

Okay so it does 100k you get an icicle, with lets say 50% mastery, that does 50k. So with the buff, your frostbolt does 200k, and the icicle is 100k. Now if the buff double dipped it'd do 200k, which is where the icicles would go a little overboard in the amt of dmg they are doing. Frost would get exponentially stronger for any mechanics that increase dmg taken or done. So to reduce that they didn't let it double dip. :3

[Deleted]

You can even picture a rotation in AT :
before: BF/2*FoF/5*Icc + lot of proc + glyphed IV
between: IL for release > BF > FB > IL + bomb refresh
restore : IL for release > BF > FB > IL + bomb refresh

There will be a lot of overlapping charge that will be generated will the release is running.
Lhiv talk about a banking system (release at 1s - haste). It will be crazy madness.

@polar: good picture ;-)

[TyrantWave]

Icicles don't benefit from damage modifiers specifically so that you can't save them for phases when bosses take more damage.

Really? That's... stupid. Damn.

[jtmzac]

The crit soft cap only provides 100% crit chance against frozen targets. You can still stack crit well over that and that increases every normal casts crit chance.

What I'm saying is imo for 5.4, it seems like we'll be going haste to 50% and then just all out crit because our normal cast frostbolts, and wellybolts are more valuable to us as crits, but the mastery isnt valuable enough to prioritise over crit.

I understand what you mean but I'm just not sure mastery is bad enough to justify going for crit instead.

[Zatetic]

I understand what you mean but I'm just not sure mastery is bad enough to justify going for crit instead.

well yeh, of course. we cant know that until they've fixed all the numbers on gear and in specs. It is just the road I personally think we're heading down.

[Vynestra]

I understand what you mean but I'm just not sure mastery is bad enough to justify going for crit instead.

If crit > mastery, they'll buff the icicle mastery. Keep in mind the frost 2 set is VERY strong, and the 4 set may be really strong depending the final dmg of the icy boulder. So with that in mind, frosts mastery may be buffed quite a bit still. The mastery is completely new so there is a LOT of testing and we still have a damage pass to go through.

[Auxis]

I imagine with the wording its gonna be like a frosty version of Shadow Crash.. wonder if that means it will splash..

Time will tell. In the meantime my frost mage buddy is mourning the old mastery because it means he won't be able to nuke the sweet everloving shit out of challenge mode trash.

Do you mean the npc ability that shoots a blob thing at a target?
Or is a class getting a new ability?

On topic - I like it. I prefer the interesting Mastery's as opposed to the flat damage buffs.

[Puri]

The new mastery is a nerf to our frostorb aoe damage, and will hurt us quite a bit for CMs.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

If crit > mastery, they'll buff the icicle mastery. Keep in mind the frost 2 set is VERY strong, and the 4 set may be really strong depending the final dmg of the icy boulder. So with that in mind, frosts mastery may be buffed quite a bit still. The mastery is completely new so there is a LOT of testing and we still have a damage pass to go through.

They're not crazy strong bonuses, they're about on par with where they should be. On average they're just slightly over 2% gain each; the stated goal for set bonuses. They fixed the boulder being unable to crit, its damage should be final.

[Vynestra]

They're not crazy strong bonuses, they're about on par with where they should be. On average they're just slightly over 2% gain each; the stated goal for set bonuses. They fixed the boulder being unable to crit, its damage should be final.

What is it's damage at? And you being the master of frost mages, do you actually believe they'll try to get frost on fires level this tier? I feel like fire and arcane are even now in a league of their own. And fire is only going to pull ahead due to heavy movement in SoO...However frost does pretty well with movement compared to arcane anyway...fire can hold it's own. Ugh I want frost to be really viable. I want those iciclces D:

[Polarthief]

Looking at the math in the thread posted earlier, it's showing a dps...decrease with this mastery over the one in live...I am thinking the 1.5% is a placeholder and may be increased in the future, and I am thinking almost will be increased to 2% if not even higher.

The stacks (Frostbolt ones) seem like a placeholder too. Methinks they don't want to do EVERYTHING simultaneously. This will very likely be a multi-build fix as Frost is still in a shithole (both PvP and PvE)

[Deleted]

Expected a DK thread. Disapointed.

[Vynestra]

The stacks (Frostbolt ones) seem like a placeholder too. Methinks they don't want to do EVERYTHING simultaneously. This will very likely be a multi-build fix as Frost is still in a shithole (both PvP and PvE)

Yeah, we still have a little bit til the numbers pass is in, I think it'll be more of a constant thing, the number pass won't be just one patch, more-so it's already happening with SOME classes, mages just really haven't gotten a lot of changes until now. I expect the next few patches to have mage changes. Mainly just getting the specs to a point where they can then tweak and adjust numbers.

[Polarthief]

Expected a DK thread. Disapointed.

Yup, because surely DKs will post new threads here

Yeah, we still have a little bit til the numbers pass is in, I think it'll be more of a constant thing, the number pass won't be just one patch, more-so it's already happening with SOME classes, mages just really haven't gotten a lot of changes until now. I expect the next few patches to have mage changes. Mainly just getting the specs to a point where they can then tweak and adjust numbers.

It's not just numbers; it's very likely that they'll make more changes (Fire still remains unchanged now, and they said they wanted to fix them). The next few builds should hopefully be Mage-centered since we were completely ignored, minus those glyphs, Mastery PvP nerf, and Temporal Shield buff.

[Milamber]

Okay so it does 100k you get an icicle, with lets say 50% mastery, that does 50k. So with the buff, your frostbolt does 200k, and the icicle is 100k. Now if the buff double dipped it'd do 200k, which is where the icicles would go a little overboard in the amt of dmg they are doing. Frost would get exponentially stronger for any mechanics that increase dmg taken or done. So to reduce that they didn't let it double dip. :3

Sure, but why do they double dip on damage reducing effects?

Q: Are Icicles modified by damage-decreasing effects? A: Yes. If your target is taking 50% less damage, it will also take 50% less damage from Icicles.

[Vynestra]

Yup, because surely DKs will post new threads here



It's not just numbers; it's very likely that they'll make more changes (Fire still remains unchanged now, and they said they wanted to fix them). The next few builds should hopefully be Mage-centered since we were completely ignored, minus those glyphs, Mastery PvP nerf, and Temporal Shield buff.

Definitely. I really really am hoping they touch arcane somehow, literally hasn't been touched at all lol. If frost isn't viable, then I want arcane viable. But if I had to choose one it'd be frost. Frost has a lot of movement. I'm so used to rune of power, going frost would be like...holy crap I can move and cast again LOL. Or fire..But I want frost more b/c of this mastery.

Sure, but why do they double dip on damage reducing effects?

It'll be changed to double dip on bonuses most likely. I don't see why not tbh...Would be stupid.



I kinda wish icicles were like soul shards and stayed above your head til used...I'd so chill in dalaran with some icicles above my head lol.