Did you care about not seeing high-end raids during TBC/Vanilla?

[unholyness]

This. Also, "Oh look, it's almost time for t6 guilds to pillage my guild of tanks and healers again so we can be forced back into attuning new recruits and slogging through Kara yet again."

This has always been true. People want to progress so they will go where they will progress faster. As a high end guild raider the players are much appreciated though it doesnt happen as often now if ever. A lot of good players were in bad guilds and when offered the chance to play with good players of course they jumped at it.

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No, I actually loved that high-end game content was for the chosen ones. It kinda made the game more enjoyable. There were literally heroes inside the game, and it kinda made the world more alive and interesting. It kinda brakes immersion when every Billybobdestroyer walks around in heroic epics and clears out all heroics in one day.

Also, great post. I agree with this. Content was made more available not because it was hard, but because people were lazy but they had enough energy and time to whine about it on forums.

This is 100% of my casual friends. They sit in vent whining about difficulty of raids and when i try to help them with their toons they don't have the time even though they have every mount,pets,etc in the game. People are generally lazy now and very bad but have time to post thousands of posts instead of recruiting or becoming a better player. I can't imagine them in Real life, why get promoted?Ill just whine that im not being treated fairly.

[Tenjen]

i definately wanted to see the content. The guys i was with did some AQ and i got tagged along but it was just a small handful of times where they were selecting people but i eventually dropped out because it was JUST SO TEDIOUS and i couldnt get enough time to go all the way for the times they wanted and how often they wanted. Never got into molten core (resistance gear and the pre-raid whatchyacallout (cant even remember what it was called), never had enough time to get them done)

only got to hear stories about Naxx and heard how awesome it was.

in TBC my guild was nice but we only ever did full Kara runs (we teamed up with another guild to do some gruul and SSC (never downed vashj) a few times) . and it was fun. a lot of fun. I loved Kara. but we never went beyond that because everytime we got a team geared out, one or two people would jump ship to a guild doing the next tier. I go through Black temple and sunwell when we outgeared it and I thought..damn i would have liked to have been here during its peak time. Same with the Vanilla raids. Playing wotlk naxx as current content was fun and showed me just how much i missed. It was great of blizz to bring it back AND make raiding more accessible. Wotlk was the first time i got to FINISH an entire expansion of raids. Through our own hard toil and effort before any major content nerfs were made. and it felt SO GOOD.

[LeperHerring]

There's a lot of nobility on display with many people claiming they didn't see raids in BC because they weren't worthy and mentioning the positive qualities of hard work and struggle to earn the reward of moving up. There's also quite a lot of how it doesn't matter now because it's so easy and how the difficulty and struggle has been devalued.

What people are saying is that it's OK that there's content they didn't see, as long as there was enough content to keep them busy. I never raided in vanilla, and I was perfectly happy because 5-mans provided me with a meaningful gameplay experience.

If anyone serving up these platitudes has AFK'd through LFR, run LFR when they didn't really need to, or used LFR as a short cut to better gear, then it's simply hypocrisy. All of that challenge for reward that you crave is still there. You just need to stay away from the things that you believe take away from it and engage in the long struggle to start downing bosses the old-fashioned way. Start in normal and work your way along with the drops that you get. At no point in this expansion has it been required to run LFR to get geared to start normal raiding. And once you start, then you build on what you get. If LFR really dampens the experience that much, avoid it.

This nonsense has been debunked so many times it's not even funny. You may feel like that, but for many of us it's very different. The fact that there is a shortcut cheapens the experience, the fact that I would need to purposefully start handicapping myself and not doing some content so that I don't spoil the experience is beyond idiotic game design. The reality is that you will see all the content almost immediately in one of the easy modes, after which it's just a grind in increasing difficulty levels. That's what the game is, it's not the BC style raiding where you got a true sense of progress and meaningful experience.

[Leadfoot352]

I'll toss my hat in as saying, yes I did miss not seeing awesome content.

My raiding life started in BC, right around the time ZA popped on up. I remember because I used the trailer to convince some of my friends to join the game as well. I was a rogue, Mace Hemo spec IIRC, who raided in Kara every week. It was fun and I liked it, but I remember asking what ZA was, cause I kept hearing about it and I remembered the epic trailer. I was told that my guild, which was a very small 10 man guild, wasn't going to be able to raid it because we just didn't have enough people to come out and play. I was upset, but I grinned and bared it because I was having okay fun with my friends.

Sadly, my friend was one of the better healers on our server at the time, and he got picked up by a guild doing ZA, and while I was a good rogue, I did okay dps and never died to mechanics, the raiding guild he joined needed only 1 healer to complete their team. This saddened me greatly, because not only did it mean that the group I'd been playing with for months now had to die because we were short our best healer, but also because I couldn't see the next stage of content. So I set my jaw and tried my hardest, and eventually got to see ZA, but never BT nor Sunwell. I kept hearing, and watching videos, of the super awesome stuff people got to do, but I never got to see it myself until Cata when I went back to try stuff out again.

In WoTLK I switched over to a holy pally, and raided with him all the way up, skipping Ulduaar, I was in the hospital for most of that tier, but every time my guild hit a wall and was unable to progress I was upset. I wanted to see the next content, and eventually ended up hopping around to be able to. Looking back I always wished I'd seen Ulduaar back when it was a thing, running it at 85 made me think it wasn't epic at all.

The big thing that sticks in my mind however, was the crushing feeling I felt when I was told that content or gear wasn't for me, because I wasn't in the right group of people. I hated being told that the super cool looking gear from Naxx 25 wasn't for me because I preferred to raid on 10. I hated being told that while I was good at the game, I was just a big fish in a small pond, too good to play in Kara, but not good enough for the next step up the line.

In Cata I was casualcore, we downed all the bosses on normal, usually before the nerf, and it felt good, there was a good amount of challenge, and I could play with my friends, not have to find 24 people I maybe didn't like. We did a handful of heroics in Cata, and even downed DW before the nerf, and it felt good, because the challenge was right within our grasp the entire time.

Currently I'm 1/13 heroic in ToT, I'd probably be farther, but three guilds I've been in died in a row, too much drama and getting shafted with GMs liking to raid with people who are better suited for LFR content. I want to do heroics, and I know they're probably within my grasp, and that makes them good for me. However, my friend can't do heroics, or even normal modes due to time constraints, and he LOVES LFR. He logs in every Tuesday and does all of em, he does well, usually near the top DPS, but he likes that he can log on and play for 2 hours and enjoy his time and do well, rather than logging on for 6 hours a week and messing around, not getting passed horridon with a pug group. He thinks LFR is the best change to WoW in his time playing, and he wouldn't be paying his sub if it weren't a thing. He likes getting to see things unfold, and when he couldn't see the end of FL in Cata he was really upset, especially when the guild rolled right into DS before he'd even gotten to see past Ryolyth.

Sorry for the wall of text, hope it all gets taken well and that no one is upset by my post, thanks for reading and hope you all have fun, especially those who are still playing and headed into SoO next patch!

Leadfoot352

[RickJamesLich]

There's a lot of nobility on display with many people claiming they didn't see raids in BC because they weren't worthy and mentioning the positive qualities of hard work and struggle to earn the reward of moving up. There's also quite a lot of how it doesn't matter now because it's so easy and how the difficulty and struggle has been devalued.

If anyone serving up these platitudes has AFK'd through LFR, run LFR when they didn't really need to, or used LFR as a short cut to better gear, then it's simply hypocrisy. All of that challenge for reward that you crave is still there. You just need to stay away from the things that you believe take away from it and engage in the long struggle to start downing bosses the old-fashioned way. Start in normal and work your way along with the drops that you get. At no point in this expansion has it been required to run LFR to get geared to start normal raiding. And once you start, then you build on what you get. If LFR really dampens the experience that much, avoid it.

Talk is cheap. Walk the walk.

For me personally, it just seems like LFR gives a really crappy version of the raid experience by pretty much revealing the whole story line and the epic build up of it all in a matter of a few hours, now I know there are quite a few people who are gonna say "Who gives an F about the story, I just want gear", or whatever, and offering a cliff notes version of it, along with gear that is almost just as good kinda devalues the whole thing. Just my opinion.

And I bet if you ask most of the people that are in LFR why they are doing it, you'll get A LOT saying they are doing it strictly so they can get into normal modes. If that wasn't the case, a lot of people wouldn't be running it lol.

[wych]

For me personally, it just seems like LFR gives a really crappy version of the raid experience by pretty much revealing the whole story line and the epic build up of it all in a matter of a few hours, now I know there are quite a few people who are gonna say "Who gives an F about the story, I just want gear", or whatever, and offering a cliff notes version of it, along with gear that is almost just as good kinda devalues the whole thing. Just my opinion.

And I bet if you ask most of the people that are in LFR why they are doing it, you'll get A LOT saying they are doing it strictly so they can get into normal modes. If that wasn't the case, a lot of people wouldn't be running it lol.

Yup.

I really, really, really wish LFR wasn't a catch up mechanic.

Give us more interesting ways to catch us up to the latest tier quickly without us being burnt out on the raid before we even properly experience it on normal.

Give LFR the entry level blues/epics and have people gear up via other means.

[Notos]

Doesn't apply to me, but seeing that content took a lot of work. Looking back, I wasted way too much time playing this game in those days.

[Ronduwil]

Doesn't apply to me, but seeing that content took a lot of work. Looking back, I wasted way too much time playing this game in those days.

I came to that conclusion in grad school. The sooner you find your way there the better off you are in the long run.

[Kathranis]

Honestly, not really. The old raids had very little story so I never really felt like I was missing out. Even Black Temple with Illidan was really light on the story.

It's different now, though. They put a lot more story into the raids these days. Now it feels like if you're not going into the raids, you're missing out on the climax of all the storylines.

[Laeryn]

I did care, but i never missed any. Once cataclysm hit i didn't give two craps for some reason..

[SodiumChloride]

You are confusing bad players with casuals.
Casual players played casually, their progress was casual.
Bad players played badly, their progress was bad.

What made a difference between a casual and bad player? Attitude.
Casual players actually progressed and improved... casually but still.
Bad players whined and demanded nerfs instead of buffing themselves.

Oh the humanity! Some people don't take the game as seriously as I do! They have different priorities in life and can't be bother to torture themselves over a stupid computer game. They must be "bad" and are a bunch of losers. (HA!)

[Spl4sh3r]

I care about seeing high-end raids. I slacked on leveling so I hit 60 and did Molten Core then Burning Crusade came.

[MoanaLisa]

This nonsense has been debunked so many times it's not even funny. You may feel like that, but for many of us it's very different. The fact that there is a shortcut cheapens the experience, the fact that I would need to purposefully start handicapping myself and not doing some content so that I don't spoil the experience is beyond idiotic game design. The reality is that you will see all the content almost immediately in one of the easy modes, after which it's just a grind in increasing difficulty levels. That's what the game is, it's not the BC style raiding where you got a true sense of progress and meaningful experience.

Expressing your opinion does not debunk actual facts. LFR was never required to begin normal raiding. People did this. Everything after that was a choice. Your choice, my choice, but a choice. Perhaps it was because your guild felt it was in some sort of realm race; now largely irrelevant with connected realms. Perhaps it was for some other reason. But if you took the shortcut, you chose to do so and complaining that the shortcut is there afterwards is hypocritical. If you want the content to be truly meaningful again, ignore the short cuts, take the long hard way, enjoy the journey and get your sense of meaningful progression which after all is something that's personal to your raid group. Otherwise it's just talk and not impressing anyone.

Personally, I'd love to see a wave of guilds arise that proclaim themselves proudly as old-school raiding: normal/heroic, no shortcuts. It seem as if there are enough people around that would subscribe to that and perhaps with a wider realm population it will happen. Then the argument about gimping yourself becomes irrelevant if the raid team/guild signs on for the same experience. The experience one has in game is largely up to the choices one makes about how they play. Blaming Blizzard or others for some making bad choices isn't particularly brave or smart. When everything is said and done the player is responsible for how they choose to play.

[Chirri]

Did I *care* that I didn't get to see Vanilla raids when they were current? I cared.

Was up *upset* that I didn't get to see Vanilla raids when they were current? I was not upset. I simply wasn't interested in putting in the work to reach that level of play at that point - it was my choice, and not Blizzard's fault (nor any other players). I even turned down a couple of raid invites because I didn't feel prepared to enter a 10 man raid... which I now regret, but again, my choice.

I'd raided before in an older MMO so I was already familiar with how it felt to bang your head against a wall for a while til everyone played their parts in the encounter properly, and that rush that came with success.

I raid with my guild. If I did not raid with my guild, I probably would not continue playing. Likewise, if one particular friend stopped playing WoW, I would also not continue playing. I can and do run LFR with my main and my alts depending on my mood, or whether I want easy VP (main's a healer, so quick queue times). If LFR were all that was left for me, that would not be enough. For some people LFR might feel the same as "seeing all of the content," but that's simply not how the game feels for me. LFR works so differently on some fights (Hi there, Durumu) that familiarity with the LFR version frankly hurt my Normal performance more than helped. With Normals I feel like I'm seeing "enough" of the content, but I still don't feel I've seen "all" of it. That would involve Heroic/Hard mode, and my guild visits HM randomly, depending on how quickly we've progressed through the current tier - with slow but consistent roster churn, it's always a bit different.

I still see HM as a goal, but I don't see it as a necessity. I see Normals as a personal necessity. I see LFR as an optional time killer, and light prep for N/HM.

[SodiumChloride]

Expressing your opinion does not debunk actual facts. LFR was never required to begin normal raiding. People did this. Everything after that was a choice. Your choice, my choice, but a choice. Perhaps it was because your guild felt it was in some sort of realm race; now largely irrelevant with connected realms. Perhaps it was for some other reason. But if you took the shortcut, you chose to do so and complaining that the shortcut is there afterwards is hypocritical. If you want the content to be truly meaningful again, ignore the short cuts, take the long hard way, enjoy the journey and get your sense of meaningful progression which after all is something that's personal to your raid group. Otherwise it's just talk and not impressing anyone.

Personally, I'd love to see a wave of guilds arise that proclaim themselves proudly as old-school raiding: normal/heroic, no shortcuts. It seem as if there are enough people around that would subscribe to that and perhaps with a wider realm population it will happen. Then the argument about gimping yourself becomes irrelevant if the raid team/guild signs on for the same experience. The experience one has in game is largely up to the choices one makes about how they play. Blaming Blizzard or others for some making bad choices isn't particularly brave or smart. When everything is said and done the player is responsible for how they choose to play.

Well, it does cheapen things somewhat. Even GC admits that.

You know, if raiders want their exclusivity that much, I say we let them have. As long as I have something fun to do, some form of character advancement, I don't really mind losing LFR.

Raiders should be careful what they wish for though. Killing LFR would probably mean less resources going to raids, Blizzard is counting on LFR to pacify the non-raiders, as they shift resources to other type of content to keep non-raiders subbed.

Pick your poison.

[wariofan1]

I was very bummed knowing that I wouldn't get to do Naxx when it first launched, that sucked. In TBC I didn't really care, but that's because I had all but given up trying to get to the endgame content, which is obviously not how you want your players to feel.

[LeperHerring]

Expressing your opinion does not debunk actual facts. LFR was never required to begin normal raiding. People did this. Everything after that was a choice. Your choice, my choice, but a choice.

I'm not debunking any facts. What you don't understand is that there are many people that do not think like you. For me it's not about *taking* a shortcut. It's the fact that a shortcut exists that makes the content meaningless to me. What makes me enjoy a gaming experience is a hard challenge that requires great skill and effort, and that you can't just skip to through easymodes or overgearing etc. The linear, one-mode BC raids provided me with that. The current system does not. I'm not going to bother starting a guild, doing theory crafting, recruitment, tactics, all that just to do the same content in a more difficult mode, it's just not attractive to me.

Personally, I'd love to see a wave of guilds arise that proclaim themselves proudly as old-school raiding: normal/heroic, no shortcuts. It seem as if there are enough people around that would subscribe to that and perhaps with a wider realm population it will happen. Then the argument about gimping yourself becomes irrelevant if the raid team/guild signs on for the same experience. The experience one has in game is largely up to the choices one makes about how they play. Blaming Blizzard or others for some making bad choices isn't particularly brave or smart. When everything is said and done the player is responsible for how they choose to play.

That's what I thought when they introduced 10 man raiding, I thought that 10 man strict was the only way to go because otherwise you spoiled yourself with the content. However, it turns out that's simply not how the human psychology works. People *will* take the optimal route and will not be happy handicapping themselves even if it leads to a better experience. It's just how we are built. It would be very logical to take the choices like you say, but unfortunately we're irrational beings. You can argue that I'm irrational until you're blue in the face, but it won't make me happy with the gaming experience Blizzard is offering me.

[darkwarrior42]

I'm not debunking any facts. What you don't understand is that there are many people that do not think like you. For me it's not about *taking* a shortcut. It's the fact that a shortcut exists that makes the content meaningless to me. What makes me enjoy a gaming experience is a hard challenge that requires great skill and effort, and that you can't just skip to through easymodes or overgearing etc. The linear, one-mode BC raids provided me with that. The current system does not. I'm not going to bother starting a guild, doing theory crafting, recruitment, tactics, all that just to do the same content in a more difficult mode, it's just not attractive to me.

The problem, then, is that you don't like difficulty levels? I confess I don't understand that mentality. Is it because you are not happy unless you can hold your success in something other people can't complete over them? Or is it because you don't have the ability to restrict yourself from choosing the easier path?

Keep in mind that in this post, you're not saying you dislike heroics because too many people choose to do the easy content and then stop. It's the mere fact that the easy content exists.... so clearly, you're not actually interested in a challenge. If you were, the shortcut wouldn't matter. I can drive up a giant hill, but that doesn't make the effort of those who choose to run up the same hill instead any less meaningful; to the contrary, I would argue that if the shortcut exists, those who choose not to use it have their efforts made more impressive and more meaningful by contrast, because they didn't take the easy route.

And I can't see any reason for you to dislike the mere existence of easier content, unless you either enjoy difficult tasks but lack the necessary willpower to not take the easy way out, or you care less about the challenge and more about your ability to brag about it after the fact.

[Prodigy152]

It didn't bother me at all. Our guild was in SSC at the time I think. Gave me something to look forward and work towards at least.

[Komati]

I didn't start playing before TBC, and I got to see every raid except SWP. Though I did get to see it after the 3.0 nerf, but that doesn't count.

Not bothered by it at all, the way I see it: I wasn't good enough to see it, so I didn't deserve to see it.