Is it too much to ask for content to be permanent?

[Lane]

That's fair. But I assumed you are having fun doing this stuff though.

It's the limited time frame in which it can be done that makes it not fun. As I said, I may be working on a new alt, it may be a really good week for WvW, I may have decided to get map completion on one of my 80s, or I may not even particularly feel like playing that week, but then a patch comes out and I have to push all that aside. I can't just say, "Well, I don't really feel like doing that right now, I'll do it next week." (Note: Typically when I think about putting something off a little bit longer I've already put it off for a week. :P)

I don't push myself to get the normal achievements because I know that (theoretically) they'll always be there, so I'm at my leisure to complete them. That luxury doesn't exist with LS achievements, some of which are fun, but again I want to be able to get to it when I get to it, not in the small time frame given and then never again in some cases.

I've said before I would prefer a 4-8 week schedule on updates, but I'm not currently struggling to find things to do in GW2. I guess if I were I'd think the current schedule was great.

[Svifnymr]

I have to say by and large my biggest cash shop irritant is bank space. I don't know anyone (except Fencers :P) who hasn't had to make a guild bank for themselves. I would have a lot less issue with this if the cash shop bank space functioned like gbank space does in 100 slot increments, but ~$7.5 per every 30 slots is ridiculous. The game very purposely floods you with account bound items in a not so subtle push to buy additional personal bank tabs too.

OTOH, I've got so much of the guild vault filled with dyes, I should probably take the small bank size as a sign to stop hoarding so much garbage.

I do think that some of the gemstore prices are out of whack with each other, but that's probably based as much on what I want to buy as anything.

[Fencers]

Regardless of the official definition, Svif is right. Most MMO players tend to treat, "What I do at max level" as "Endgame content".

I already addressed that vulgar POV earlier-- Keg Brawl is an endgame in GW2 just the same as dailies in Rift or TSW.

[Zephyr Storm]

I already addressed that vulgar POV earlier-- Keg Brawl is an endgame in GW2 just the same as dailies in Rift or TSW.

Doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of MMO players view endgame as what they do at max level, not what you personally believe it is.

[Zamalamin]

I am going to probably be taking some things out of context here, and I apologize for that, but the endgame in MMOs tends to be defined as "What we do at max level". I will agree with Fencers on one major point. This is where the game tends to narrow its focus. Take WoW for example, since it is still the biggest MMO on the market. Dungeons become nearly non-existent at max level (aside from extremely early gearing) and questing just doesn't really happen (aside from a daily grind which is for, you guessed it, gearing). This causes the game focus to shift to gearing for either PvP or PvE. However, this narrowing happens naturally at endgame in many MMOs, but is not the MMO definition of endgame and one can not use other definitions to define the term "endgame" in an MMO.

The reason GW2 is considered to have "no endgame" by many people is simple. They take questing, events, etc. out of the equation. Many people want a narrowing of focus towards gearing/raiding/extremely competitive PvP. This doesn't happen much in GW2. Sure you can farm Ascended gear or the Legendary weapons and such, but it isn't the same. GW2 (and this is partly opinion so don't take this as me throwing out facts that aren't always factual) is much broader in options at max level with none of these options being as "hardcore" as some games. At max level you can freely explore the world, do events all over, do the content that is released (which I do believe should be removed as it is. That is the point of a living world), WvW (if you are into PvP), sPvP, dungeons, fractals, guild stuff, etc. This is what the endgame of GW2 consists of. It is not suitable to some people, to others it is.

I play tons of MMOs that are out there. I enjoy them very much. What needs to be recognized is that some MMOs are different from others. GW2 is not designed to have WoW's endgame. Tera and Neverwinter are not designed to have a combat system that WoW players will love with all their hearts. This is how things are. I feel sorry for people that miss out on achievements and events because they could not be there or are slow about it, however, it's designed to be a semi-real scenario. They will not delay Pax East or hold it for all of eternity so that everyone can see it. Nor would they do that for the dragon festival. Be happy ANet is so proud of this game and are willing to put out content updates for it. And rejoice in the fact that if you miss an event, you can see the next one soon.

I know my topics bounced a bit, and I apologize, but I wanted to cover a bit of everything that made me want to add my 2 cents. Anyways, I shall end with stating that we should be keeping this to a genuine debate/discussion (and I know that's hard for most people on the internet) and not a flame war. As much as people may disagree, and as much as you may dislike opinions/statements from others, keep it civil please. For example, I know a lot of you don't like Fencers' statements, but she is a mod here at MMO-Champ and helps to keep the forums in as good a shape as they are, so she doesn't deserve many of the snarling remarks that I have seen made in this thread over the course of it.

[Fencers]

Doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of MMO players view endgame as what they do at max level, not what you personally believe it is.

There is no personal belief. Endgame has defined parameters understood and applied across a variety of games and scenarios.

Not to mention that "vast majority of MMO players view endgame as what they do at max" would just as much apply to Keg Brawl as Fractals or Orr events. Which is not likely to be what endgame means to that [supposedly] vast majority of players. So what even is this argument in contra to?

It's not very smart.

[Svifnymr]

There is no personal belief. Endgame has defined parameters understood and applied across a variety of games and scenarios.

Not to mention that "vast majority of MMO players view endgame as what they do at max" would just as much apply to Keg Brawl as Fractals or Orr events. Which is not likely to be what endgame means to that [supposedly] vast majority of players. So what even is this argument in contra to?

When engaging in a discussion where the majority of the participants have a specific meaning to a term, it's good practice to make yourself clear. If you don't like how folks use "endgame", then don't use that phrase if you don't want to derail a thread.

It's not very smart.

It'd also be nice if you didn't engage in such tactics as calling things vulgar and stupid because you don't agree with them.

"What do you do in GW2 endgame"
"Currently folks are doing the queens pavilian and organized champion chains in the high level areas".

MMO Endgame=What you do when you're done with the leveling experience.

[Fencers]

When engaging in a discussion where the majority of the participants have a specific meaning to a term, it's good practice to make yourself clear. If you don't like how folks use "endgame", then don't use that phrase if you don't want to derail a thread.

And again, what is this contra to?

Are you suggesting that players [for example] harvesting mine nodes in Rift at level 60 are participating in the "endgame" by the popular & vulgar usage of the term?

Would that be honest application of the term as you want to use it in this discussion? If so, then sure, players collecting herbs and participating in Keg Brawl are doing endgame activities just as well. If not, what would you set as the parameters of Rift's endgame as an example?

Otherwise, endgame is exactly as described; the final stages of a game [before completion] when limited pieces or options are in play. A term that is applied & practiced across many game forms consistently.

A game ends.

What you do in those final steps before then when only a few moves are left is classically endgame.

That is all an endgame is.

It'd also be nice if you didn't engage in such tactics as calling things vulgar and stupid because you don't agree with them.

No one called anything stupid. Vulgar was used in proper context.

Imaginary slights are your own doing.

[Karizee]

And yet another topic completely derailed - Thanks Obama!

You've been doing this for over a year, Fencers - how about you give it a rest or write a blog and link it in your signature or something so we don't have to have this same discussion on every thread. Seriously, it's so tiresome.

[Fencers]

And yet another topic completely derailed - Thanks Obama!

You've been doing this for over a year, Fencers - how about you give it a rest or write a blog and link it in your signature or something so we don't have to have this same discussion on every thread. Seriously, it's so tiresome.

Endgame in relation to permanent content is relevant. Discussing gameplay & the process of playing games are the only things we should ever be discussing.

If you find such tiresome then you are free to not engage in discussion of such.

[Triptych]

As much as people may disagree, and as much as you may dislike opinions/statements from others, keep it civil please. For example, I know a lot of you don't like Fencers' statements, but she is a mod here at MMO-Champ and helps to keep the forums in as good a shape as they are, so she doesn't deserve many of the snarling remarks that I have seen made in this thread over the course of it.

The thing is, Fencers' supercilious manner is well documented on these forums. Random case in point : here.

And more often than not, threads in this particular sub-forum get derailed when Fencers chimes in with something along the usual lines of : "Your question is irrelevant, since |statement x| doesn't agree with |obscure definition Y|." It feels like it happens every single week. And moderators should know better. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[Deleted]

Judging by recent information, they are about to add a whole new "endgame" based around doing daily stuff to earn materials to craft ascended gear. I'm not to happy with that, to be honest. One of the selling points of this game at launch was the lack of gear grind so I hope it doesn't turn out like the hints suggest it will. If I want a "log in, do daily chores" game, I'll play WoW.

[Vespian]

There is no personal belief. Endgame has defined parameters understood and applied across a variety of games and scenarios.

Not to mention that "vast majority of MMO players view endgame as what they do at max" would just as much apply to Keg Brawl as Fractals or Orr events. Which is not likely to be what endgame means to that [supposedly] vast majority of players. So what even is this argument in contra to?

It's not very smart.

*Wonder why Fencers keeps pitfalling herself*.

End-game is personal, whether you believe it or not. End-game is defined by what the developers see as end-game, which is often not temporary events. And definitely not in the minds of the players.

[Zamalamin]

The thing is, Fencers' supercilious manner is well documented on these forums. Random case in point : here.

And more often than not, threads in this particular sub-forum get derailed when Fencers chimes in with something along the usual lines of : "Your question is irrelevant, since |statement x| doesn't agree with |obscure definition Y|." It feels like it happens every single week. And moderators should know better. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

I do realize this. Don't worry about that. I lurk here enough to know about her poor posting habits, I was simply talking about the malicious responses. Bringing up that fact to a higher-up is more effective than complaining on the forums and lashing out.

[Lane]

Judging by recent information, they are about to add a whole new "endgame" based around doing daily stuff to earn materials to craft ascended gear. I'm not to happy with that, to be honest. One of the selling points of this game at launch was the lack of gear grind so I hope it doesn't turn out like the hints suggest it will. If I want a "log in, do daily chores" game, I'll play WoW.

Yeah, I'm not happy about that either. Anything time gated is really punishing to anyone with alts, especially with Anet's penchant for making things once per day per account. If they make ascended gear account bound (there's certainly been enough clamoring for it on the forums) it might not be that bad, but even still that's going to be 3 separate sets of gear (light, medium, heavy) in a system I'm willing to bet is designed with a single character player in mind.

Unfortunately, it'll probably end up being like laurels. I never have used mine to buy ascended gear because I'm not dedicated enough to any one class for that.

Funnily enough, you'd think they'd make it per character to encourage people to buy more character slots. :P

[DrunkenBeard]

I have personally missed most Living World updates (basically from the Razing to Cutthroat Politics with only some content done here and there) but I'm of the opinion that it's a good thing they are temporary. I have enjoyed going through the Wiki and watching WP videos to catch up on everything that happened, the story is really shaping up to be something great and people around me are actually looking forward to the Queen's speach. This is something that I have honestly never seen done in another video games, an ongoing participative (voting for the new council member) story where change is permanent and events happen almost in real time. It's the epitome of the term MMORPG in my opinion. Yes, I would have liked to be there but having those events be permanent completely defeats the concept of having a "Living World". Canach was caught, the Molten Alliance was defeated, Ellen Kiel is the new member of LA's council, those are all events that are now part of GW's lore, it makes no sens to have them permanently, especially when we're looking at a biweekly rate for content patches so there will always be stuff to do and new achievements to hunt. If you're playing casually like me and you can't complete the achievements on time, it's no real biggie. You can't be an achiever if you only play casually so move on and enjoy the content at your pace.

[Deleted]

I have asked for old raids to have flexible system since always.
The system exists for challenge modes : your gear is normalised to a given level.

They could do the same with old raids, so you would go in there, and yknow, Firefighter would still be fun and hard, but noooooooooo, it requires some dev time, something Blizzard is allergic to.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I also love this game but while I think the content going away after 2 weeks helps the game feel more alive etc it's also very annoying because sometimes I can't/don't feel like playing as much but I still want to do the new stuff and then when I look suddenly it's gone already and I haven't even started it...really pisses me off, other than that this game is great though.

[Zephyr Storm]

There is no personal belief. Endgame has defined parameters understood and applied across a variety of games and scenarios.

Not to mention that "vast majority of MMO players view endgame as what they do at max" would just as much apply to Keg Brawl as Fractals or Orr events. Which is not likely to be what endgame means to that [supposedly] vast majority of players. So what even is this argument in contra to?

It's not very smart.

Oh look. A mod calling a forum poster stupid and getting away with it. Surprise, surprise.

And once again, the term endgame, for MOST MMO players, simply means what they do at max level. In GW2, that can be fractals, farming Orr, farming achievements, running Explorable Mode dungeons, do Keg Brawl, etc, etc. Just because YOU don't personally agree with this statement, DOES NOT make it untrue. And just because something doesn't fit a VERY NARROW definition in your mind does not make it any less true.

I have a feeling most MMO players would disagree with you (as evidenced by many replies here), but yet you will continue to ignore them/call them stupid because they don't agree to the very narrow minded and "official" definition of a term. Heaven forbid someone interpret a meaning differently than you, the all knowing video game god.

- - - Updated - - -

And again, what is this contra to?

Are you suggesting that players [for example] harvesting mine nodes in Rift at level 60 are participating in the "endgame" by the popular & vulgar usage of the term?

Would that be honest application of the term as you want to use it in this discussion? If so, then sure, players collecting herbs and participating in Keg Brawl are doing endgame activities just as well. If not, what would you set as the parameters of Rift's endgame as an example?

Otherwise, endgame is exactly as described; the final stages of a game [before completion] when limited pieces or options are in play. A term that is applied & practiced across many game forms consistently.

A game ends.

What you do in those final steps before then when only a few moves are left is classically endgame.

That is all an endgame is.

No one called anything stupid. Vulgar was used in proper context.

Imaginary slights are your own doing.

1. You just don't get it.

2. It wasn't imaginary. Just because you try to sugar coat your insults, does not make them any less of an insult.

- - - Updated - - -

Endgame in relation to permanent content is relevant. Discussing gameplay & the process of playing games are the only things we should ever be discussing.

If you find such tiresome then you are free to not engage in discussion of such.

We find you tiresome. Leave.

- - - Updated - - -

The thing is, Fencers' supercilious manner is well documented on these forums. Random case in point : here.

And more often than not, threads in this particular sub-forum get derailed when Fencers chimes in with something along the usual lines of : "Your question is irrelevant, since |statement x| doesn't agree with |obscure definition Y|." It feels like it happens every single week. And moderators should know better. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

She's been doing that since GW2 launched. She acts like she is some all-knowing expert on the game and anyone who disagrees with her on something is basically called out on being stupid or simply ignored. She can say and do no wrong when it comes to video game discussions. And when someone brings up a valid argument against her, she usually derails the topic and uses really obscure information/personal opinions to make the other person sound wrong.

It's OCD honestly.

[Deleted]

Why are you all even arguing about what endgame is, isn't that a little off topic here?