Horde racial's are overpowered. Why isn't this being addressed?

[ColbaneX]

For PvE? Maybe. But Alliance has really good PvP racials. As well as a really good tank/heal racial in Gift of the Naaru(now that it has been buffed)

[Stolberg]

Please Laurcus, don't feed the trolls.

[OrcsRLame]

What you're saying is racial bonuses are buffers for bad performance. If you want to throw money at a problem to fix it, by all means, more power to you. I'm sure Blizzard won't mind. What I'm saying is specific racials are not required to be successful at raiding. If you want to be a bleeding edge guild, you probably want to throw cash at your problem to get ahead (or get those practice pulls on the PTR), while everyone else is content to do pull after pull to get the fights down.

Like I said earlier, Orc and Troll may be superior for four fights in this tier, but in the future they may not be. +1% expertise or hit allows for other, better stats, which will likely equal out to a similar increase in performance. It also depends on what classes your raid brings, so it may not even be possible for you to change Orc/Troll. How does that work then?



I only did that one time to try to help Laurcus realize s/he was being a bit ridiculous. Big text =/= correct opinion.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it is what it is, nothing more and nothing less. Good racials make both good and bad players better by a theoretically equal amount. Saying they're the be all end all of raiding is overstating their importance. Saying they're meaningless or worthless is understating their importance. It's like gems or enchants for your gear. You could take out a single gem from your gear and still raid just fine, and it's very likely that any wipe you ever have could be blamed on a variety of factors. But it's also possible that that gem could make a difference sometimes.

The only class that Orcs/Trolls don't have between the two of them is paladin. Unless you're stacking ret pallies it's a non issue. As for what you do in that situation, you go for the next best thing.

And I don't feel I was being ridiculous at all. This was the start of our conversation from my point of view.

Me: "This car is blue but cars can also be red!"
You: "WTF man, not all cars are blue, some of them are red!"
Me: "I just fucking said that! KAMEHAMEHA!!!"

- - - Updated - - -

For PvE? Maybe. But Alliance has really good PvP racials. As well as a really good tank/heal racial in Gift of the Naaru(now that it has been buffed)

Very true! Which is why I've always been of the opinion that racials are bullshit. What if you want to min/max pvp and pve? You're shit out of luck.

[Terrorwave]

you must be new here

[ScooterPerpetual]

Horde racial's are much better. I mean Alliance ones definitely have their bonuses (Trinket, Sprint) but Horde are definitely better. But unless you are going for top 5 World kills I dont think it will really matter much.

[Stolberg]

Oh, and btw Ikthid, the 1% Crit is > to 1% expertise /hit... (For some specs ofc, the ones who favour Crit above other stats)

1% Crit = 600
1% Exp = 340
1% Hit = 340
(If you aren't brain damaged enough, you probably can understand these things)

So you shouldn't be saying that "+1% expertise or hit allows for other, better stats, which will likely equal out to a similar increase in performance."

Also, 1% Expertise or Hit only matters on first patches on every expansion, I'm right now trying to get rid of every hit possible.

[Deleted]

Have you ever wiped at or below 1% on a boss? If the answer is yes, and there was even one dps in your raid that was not a troll or orc, all things being equal, you failed when you would have otherwise killed the boss. It is no different than reducing the maximum hp of a boss from 1 million to 990,000. There's literally no difference between the boss just having 1% less hp and having better racials.

Have you ever wiped at or below 1% on a boss? If the answer is yes, and there was even one dps in your raid that was not dpsing for two seconds, all things being equal, you failed when you would have otherwise killed the boss. It is no different than reducing the maximum hp of a boss from 1 million to 990,000. There's literally no difference between the boss just having 1% less hp and dpsing two seconds extra.



I agree with the people that racials aren't that much of a big deal in progress raiding. Racials are only one out of many many things that could be changed. Sure, it's a guaranteed improvement on every fight, which let's you cheese 1-4% extra from the boss, but unless you're in a world first guild, you'll get the kill eventually and you'll be better off teaching your warlock how to use his damn UVLS properly, or tell the overgeared prot pally to gem haste instead of mastery than you'll be changing your racials.

The beast bosses are the easiest bosses in ToT (in both heroic and normal), so you will most definitely be able to improve your group more by getting some more knowledge of the fights/how to play than changing a race.


World firsts though? Yeah, they surely wipe a lot on 1%.. A loooot. The racials are very benefitial there and those are probably the biggest gains they can get if they don't already have them. But racials is not that big of a gain for a ilvl535 group with 2/13 heroic. It's a considerably small gain compared to what they otherwise can improve.

[OrcsRLame]

It's not about human error or uncontrollable variables. It's about what you can control. Racials are a big red button that say free dps. If you don't push the button you're intentionally being less effective.

Have you ever wiped at or below 1% on a boss? If the answer is yes, and there was even one dps in your raid that was not dpsing for two seconds, all things being equal, you failed when you would have otherwise killed the boss. It is no different than reducing the maximum hp of a boss from 1 million to 990,000. There's literally no difference between the boss just having 1% less hp and dpsing two seconds extra.

I've already said that cars can also be red.

[Ickthid]

Oh, and btw Ickthid, the 1% Crit is > to 1% expertise /hit...

1% Crit = 600
1% Exp = 340
1% Hit = 340
(If you aren't brain damaged enough, you probably can understand these things)

So you shouldn't be saying that "+1% expertise or hit allows for other, better stats, which will likely equal out to a similar increase in performance."

Also, 1% Expertise or Hit only matters on first patches on every expansion, I'm right now trying to get rid of every hit possible.

Thank you, forum troll, let's go back and re-read my statement together.

"+1% expertise or hit allows for other, better stats, which will likely equal out to a similar increase in performance."

That means, in case you can't piece it together yourself, that you don't need as much hit or expertise to reach cap, and can look at reforging less into hit/expertise and more into awesome secondary stats to get some sort of increase in performance! Example: Hit capped player happens to be a Draenei that loves haste. They can afford to reforge their extra hit into haste, and get a very minor dps boost! In this scenario, their racial gives them room to increase their damage.

The moral of the story is: Regardless of what type of creature the bosses they fight are, they'll get a solid dps increase, rather than a situational one.

Me: "This car is blue but cars can also be red!"
You: "WTF man, not all cars are blue, some of them are red!"
Me: "I just fucking said that! KAMEHAMEHA!!!"

I admit to the possibility that I may have misread one of your earlier posts, and concede a FORUM VICTORY because of your stellar use of the Kamehameha wave.

[Frozendekay]

To illustrate how good berserking (troll racial) is for burst, this is a 20 second burst window for an enhance with and without it: http://i.imgur.com/IznNPM6.png/

This is in 5.3. Some classes benefit more from this because of DoTs (Demo locks gaining 3% overall dps on council for instance).

Now imagine a raid where half the dps are troll (pretty common) vs one with 0 trolls on a fight that requires a lot of burst - lets say something like Megaera on the last head, Durumu walls, Sha of Pride burn, Galakras p2, Dark Shaman 30% burn, Nazgrim zerker stance, Garrosh p3 or any fights with a high priority add. It gets stronger the shorter the burst window is and at worst is still as good or better than anything else

[Last Starfighter]

are there other factors that contributed to that wipe? Of course. You could always have better mechanics, better latency, use less healers, etc. That doesn't mean you wouldn't succeed more often with better racials.

christ on a cracker the reading comprehension in this thread hurts.

this is fun. I can write in huge letters too. It doesn't make what you say more valid. Stop being an angry tool

Infracted; Don't insult other posters nor use bold/large size letters throughout your post.

[OrcsRLame]

I admit to the possibility that I may have misread one of your earlier posts, and concede a FORUM VICTORY because of your stellar use of the Kamehameha wave.

Thank you good sir, I humbly accept that forum victory.

[Jomaty]

Eh, Horde racials have always been better. Alliance is by far my favorite faction, I've played both factions for long durations of time. I played Horde in Wrath, Cata and MoP and honestly I don't like Horde, but I played it because I had friends who played it. I would pay to transfer all of my toons back to Alliance if I had people to play with

[OrcsRLame]

this is fun. I can write in huge letters too. It doesn't make what you say more valid. Stop being an angry tool

I agree. But it can help clear up misunderstandings about red cars.

[Sithalos]

Every Man for Himself says "Sup".

[Zatetic]

Stoneform is amazing for tanking
EMFH is a free trinket
gotn is a 20% heal
expansive mind 5% mana
1% crit

vs

blood fury
berserking
touch of the grave
arcane torrent
1% haste

idk they seem pretty balanced to me. horde has more dps racials, alliance has more survivability racials. In heroic raiding, alliance would probably be better tbh. survivability > output

[Frozendekay]

idk they seem pretty balanced to me. horde has more dps racials, alliance has more survivability racials. In heroic raiding, alliance would probably be better tbh. survivability > output

If that was true then we wouldn't have seen all of the top guilds going horde. Sadly, only 6 of the top 20 25man guilds overall are alliance and only 4 of the top 20 25man US guilds. Those numbers will likely go down if it stays this way next xpac.

[Stolberg]

Thank you, forum troll, let's go back and re-read my statement together.

"+1% expertise or hit allows for other, better stats, which will likely equal out to a similar increase in performance."

That means, in case you can't piece it together yourself, that you don't need as much hit or expertise to reach cap, and can look at reforging less into hit/expertise and more into awesome secondary stats to get some sort of increase in performance! Example: Hit capped player happens to be a Draenei that loves haste. They can afford to reforge their extra hit into haste, and get a very minor dps boost! In this scenario, their racial gives them room to increase their damage.

The moral of the story is: Regardless of what type of creature the bosses they fight are, they'll get a solid dps increase, rather than a situational one.



I admit to the possibility that I may have misread one of your earlier posts, and concede a FORUM VICTORY because of your stellar use of the Kamehameha wave.

Seriously, your brain stopped somewhere between paleozoic and mesozoic, I'm reforging out of hit to get other stats but I'm still at 16%+...

Also, if you are saying that 1% hit / exp / crit / whatever the alliance has, is better, you probably don't know the multiplying effects that a 20% haste and a 5% damage lead to.

We don't even need to discuss this, if every single top raiding guild is moving to Horde, it's probably not because of orcs and trolls animations.

So yea, it really seems useless to feed the troll. You can't teach this guy, because he probably don't know what it means to be undergeared against a boss. If you say 535 iLvl and 2/13 hc in ToT, you just make my point valid.

Now go get some sleep, the servers will be up in 4 hours or something.

[Mormolyce]

Racials do come into it though. Which was the entire point of my size 6 text which you seem to keep ignoring.

Imagine this scenario. Scrubcorecasualbro over here does 100 dps. Elitistgodsgifttoraiding over there does 1,000 dps. If they both gain 1% more dps, (racials can often be a lot more) then Scrubcorecasualbro now does 101 dps, while Elitistgodsgifttoraiding does 1,010 dps. Scrubcorecasualbro still sucks ass, but he does 1% more dps than he did before.

Just because Scrubcorecasualbro can improve in other ways, that does not magically make the dps gain from having a better racial go away. So, yesterday, Scrubcorecasualbro was out questing, and he sees a rare murloc that he wants to kill. He walks up to him and starts attacking, and after a long hard fought battle the murloc kills him and eats his guts. And he only had 4 hp left, how frustrating! Now, assume there is an alternate universe that is exactly like ours, the only difference is that Scrubcorecasualbro isn't playing a shitty race when he fights the murloc. Instead of dying and getting his guts eaten, he just barely kills the murloc. Now, a better player may not have been a hunter wearing cloth and trying to punch everything to death with no pet, but his racial still made him better than he otherwise would have been.

... so what?

I was oversimplifying to make a point. My numbers are not indicative of actual math done on a per encounter basis, and neither are your numbers. When actually trying to math out the value of racials, you need to consider a lot of factors. 10s vs 25s, how many players are playing a sub optimal race, the classes involved, fight specific mechanics, etc. In general though, switching from the worst race to the best race for a class is a lot more than 1% more dps.

Honestly, no matter the circumstances racials are never going to be significant. They're completely drowned out by all the other factors in a raid.

I'll say it again, if you're not a world first guild and you're wiping at 1%, you stand to gain far more by lifting your game than what you get from changing racials. You're probably only doing 80% of the DPS that one of those world first guys could do in the same gear you're wearing, made up example.

If on the other hand you're in Blood Legion or Vodka or whatever, then yeah maybe it's worth it. Then again, those guys basically devote their entire lives to making sure they have every advantage no matter how ridiculously slight. There is no limit to the amount of effort they will put in if there is gain attached. To everyone else, there is an effort vs. payoff decision to be made.

[Stormcall]

Only a Horde would defend that there racials are OP in pve you can't compare Berserk to Gift of the Naaru dps wise. Oh"HUMANZ HAVE OP PVP RACIALS" well Undead have a similar ability but you never see people complain about that do you?

Because their similarity does not make them remotely equal in power. Undead can break out of Fear(okay, this IS good), Sleep(comparatively uncommon), and Charm(very uncommon, even moreso now that Priests lost Mind Control as a baseline ability). Humans can break out of ANYTHING. They can break out of everything Undead can, plus STUNS, Roots, Snares, Incapacitates...if you think those are remotely on the same level, I seriously, seriously question how much PvP you have done, cause I'm guessing it's just short of NONE.

As for trolls, okay, yeah, 5% can be a pretty big deal in PvE...if Beasts are there. OTOH, if you're fighting something without Beasts, it's then 100% useless. You'll note there weren't a ton of trolls running around in Wrath...