[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Gorfion]

If his haste is low he should be using holy avenger. But what is a "mitigation build"? Haste offers the best damage mitigation (smoothing) of any stat, unless your paladin is playing poorly.

[MerinPally]

This may come across as very horrible and short sighted but I've been drinking (oh yes paladin forums, we're going to go back to that period of magnificence) but if your tank is swapping from haste to something else, you have bigger problems than "what glyphs he's using". Whilst it's not necessarily wrong or going to massively impact his survival although it may do... the other perks... yeah. I'd get onto sorting out the stats first.

[mongoose6]

Mitigation build as in Mastery>Parry>=Dodge (assuming hit/exp cap). I believe there may be something off with his rotation as well but I want to ask him prior to posting any logs.

[Deleted]

Mitigation build as in Mastery>Parry>=Dodge (assuming hit/exp cap). I believe there may be something off with his rotation as well but I want to ask him prior to posting any logs.

That is not the mitigation build, that is the "I have no idea what I am doing"-build

- - - Updated - - -

May have been cowered already and i missed it but when are you all gonna be switching to EF in 5.4? soon as it goes live or with 4p? This has been bugging me couple days figured id ask the smart ones!

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1332089-Sacred-Shield-vs-Eternal-Flame-5-4-PROT

[rhandric]

That is not the mitigation build, that is the "I have no idea what I am doing"-build

Or the "Help, I'm stuck in Cata!" build

[mongoose6]

That is not the mitigation build, that is the "I have no idea what I am doing"-build

You are absolutely right, I don't play a pally, I play a warrior. I just went by the builds suggested for pallies by Ask Mr. Robot. I personally hate Ask Mr. Robot and would prefer constructive insight from others that play pallies. One fact I do know is that the haste build does not work for our pally and I will not be replacing him because of this.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

You are absolutely right, I don't play a pally, I play a warrior. I just went by the builds suggested for pallies by Ask Mr. Robot. I personally hate Ask Mr. Robot and would prefer constructive insight from others that play pallies. One fact I do know is that the haste build does not work for our pally and I will not be replacing him because of this.

You mean he is incapable of hitting something more frequently than every 1.5 seconds? Because that is the only thing that changes with the "rotation" (for want of a better word).

[rhandric]

You are absolutely right, I don't play a pally, I play a warrior. I just went by the builds suggested for pallies by Ask Mr. Robot. I personally hate Ask Mr. Robot and would prefer constructive insight from others that play pallies. One fact I do know is that the haste build does not work for our pally and I will not be replacing him because of this.

The question becomes, why doesn't it work for him? The faster playstyle? Does he not hit his buttons fast enough, so he doesn't see the full benefit of the haste build?

Let's go over the facts:
1) Haste build gives higher uptime of SotR
2) Haste gives faster SS ticks
3) Haste gives more hits (both white and specials), and therefore gives more SoI ticks
4) Haste requires you to hit buttons faster to get the full benefit
5) Mastery build gives lower uptime of larger SotR
6) Mastery gives some block

[Deleted]

You are absolutely right, I don't play a pally, I play a warrior. I just went by the builds suggested for pallies by Ask Mr. Robot. I personally hate Ask Mr. Robot and would prefer constructive insight from others that play pallies. One fact I do know is that the haste build does not work for our pally and I will not be replacing him because of this.

There are other viable builds than haste build, but mastery>parry=dodge is not one of them.

[mongoose6]

The question becomes, why doesn't it work for him? The faster playstyle? Does he not hit his buttons fast enough, so he doesn't see the full benefit of the haste build?

Let's go over the facts:
1) Haste build gives higher uptime of SotR
2) Haste gives faster SS ticks
3) Haste gives more hits (both white and specials), and therefore gives more SoI ticks
4) Haste requires you to hit buttons faster to get the full benefit
5) Mastery build gives lower uptime of larger SotR
6) Mastery gives some block

I'm not sure why it doesn't work for him, but having him prioritize mastery resulted in not only smoother damage income, but less damage taken overall on several encounters (also more dps which boggles my mind). I'm guessing from what you've suggested that he simply has problems keeping up with a higher APM playstyle. In any case I'll take from this that divine purpose is not the way to go and he also needs a different stat prio if its not going to be the haste build.

[Nairobi]

DP becomes exponentially better the more haste you have (since you're firing off more ShotR's, ergo more 25% chances to proc an extra cast). Conversely, with a low/no haste build, and someone who has no clue what to do, which seems to be the case here, he's shooting himself in the foot in terms of talent choices.

SW is more advanced than I think he's capable of, and will yield even less results than DP. Have him stick with HA.

As for the issues he has with haste, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he has poor reaction time and not a very strong grasp on his class mechanics. This crazy stat prio he has developed has placed him far back from the get go, and shot himself in the other foot. Avoidance/mastery builds are good at helpign people who literally do not hit buttons (specifically ShotR/AM) take less damage, because it's 100% passive. Since you said that he takes less damage with this subpar build, the obvious correlation is that he simply isn't playing his character right (or at all). I'd be shocked if his APM was even half of what's expected, and if he had a ShotR uptime in double digits.

If you post logs, we can easily see what the glaring issue(s) are, but if he's not open to changing, that may not be worth anyone's time.

[mongoose6]

Here is a log from when he was still using the haste build

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-5m036v8fxupyzchl/

I don't think he's unwilling to change, he just doesn't know how to and I don't know enough about pally tanking to make constructive suggestions.

[Deleted]

The mastery build is 'more difficult' to pull off than the haste build in any case since you still need to cover each big nuke with a sotr but with mastery you don't have as easy a time getting the necessary holy power.

[Nillo]

Here is a log from when he was still using the haste build

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-5m036v8fxupyzchl/

I don't think he's unwilling to change, he just doesn't know how to and I don't know enough about pally tanking to make constructive suggestions.

Seems like he's refreshing SS way too often (38 times in a <8 min fight o0)
ShoR uptime is really low
He also seems to be unable to sync ShoR uptime with abilities like Talon Rake.

[trystero]

His SotR uptime is absolutely dreadful. Mongoose, the strength of paladins over other classes is that we're extraordinary at smoothing damage intake. The primary way we do this is through SS (your guy has a good SS uptime but it seems to be coming from being refreshed WAY too often) and SotR. When someone has low SotR values then he's not leveraging the primary advantage a paladin offers. Uptimes you should see on most fights, in T15 gear, is at the least 45%. It'll fluctuate depending on the fight but it shouldn't be terribly lower than that (Tortos, on the boss fulltime, should be 60%+ whereas Lei Shen will be lower due to intermission phases). On one of his latest kills (Meg) he had a 15% SotR. Don't even know what to say to that except that it shows the state that late-tier 10N is in when one of the tanks can be so mismanaged and still score a kill.

As far as a mastery build, to my knowledge absolutely no one does it anywhere. Maybe it's viable in the sense that you can do OK with it in normal modes but it's not nearly as effective as a well-played haste build.

Anyway, here's a major issue he has,

[20:13:28.207] Alericc's Shield of the Righteous fades from Alericc
[20:13:29.178] Tortos casts Snapping Bite on Alericc
[20:13:29.418] Tortos Snapping Bite Alericc 264675 (A: 132945)

[20:13:53.530] Alericc's Shield of the Righteous fades from Alericc
[20:13:58.131] Tortos casts Snapping Bite on Alericc
[20:13:58.331] Tortos Snapping Bite Alericc 286505 (B: 122788)

4:11.012] Alericc's Shield of the Righteous fades from Alericc
[20:14:14.992] Tortos casts Snapping Bite on Alericc
[20:14:15.232] Tortos Snapping Bite Alericc 313888 (A: 88308)

[20:14:20.894] Alericc's Shield of the Righteous fades from Alericc
[20:14:23.444] Tortos casts Snapping Bite on Alericc
[20:14:23.664] Tortos Snapping Bite Alericc 226888 (A: 178224)

Well there you go, right on the first page I see that he has no idea how to approach the AM system. It doesn't matter what build you're using; if you can't use SotR to mitigate boss specials then you'll be run over. SotR needs to be up BEFORE they hit.

[mongoose6]

Seems like he's refreshing SS way too often (38 times in a <8 min fight o0)
ShoR uptime is really low
He also seems to be unable to sync ShoR uptime with abilities like Talon Rake.

Thank you for the feedback. I'll make him a weak aura so he can track SS and know when to refresh. Seems like fixing this would free up a ton of globals that could be used for building HoPo and may resolve quite a few issues.

And thank you Trystero for giving me an ouline of what to look for.

[Deleted]

I'll make him a weak aura so he can track SS and know when to refresh.

If you search the Sacred Duty blog by Theck quite a while back, you will find his weak auras which track SS and have lots of other tankadin functionality.

It may be worth waiting one week, however, as with the patch things will change and Theck will at some stage post weak auras that track EF (which will have a lot more throughput than SS).

[Riemu2k3]

If you search the Sacred Duty blog by Theck quite a while back, you will find his weak auras which track SS and have lots of other tankadin functionality.

It may be worth waiting one week, however, as with the patch things will change and Theck will at some stage post weak auras that track EF (which will have a lot more throughput than SS).

Please don't give inaccurate information to posters who don't know better.

You can't say EF is better than SS as a general rule of thumb - especially not in 10man normal content as soon as 5.4 hits. There is a lengthy discussion going on here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Flame-5-4-PROT

In most cases you will be fine running with SS instead of EF - especially on lower difficulties. It's also easier to play with as they don't need to change what they have been doing. I see absolutely no need to switch from SS to EF when you're only doing 10 man normal content and dont have 4pt16. Not counting the fact that EF takes away another SoTR which the OP's paladin tank has already trouble maintaining.

[Deleted]

Please don't give inaccurate information to posters who don't know better.

You can't say EF is better than SS as a general rule of thumb - especially not in 10man normal content as soon as 5.4 hits. There is a lengthy discussion going on here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Flame-5-4-PROT

In most cases you will be fine running with SS instead of EF - especially on lower difficulties. It's also easier to play with as they don't need to change what they have been doing. I see absolutely no need to switch from SS to EF when you're only doing 10 man normal content and dont have 4pt16. Not counting the fact that EF takes away another SoTR which the OP's paladin tank has already trouble maintaining.

Neither should you. He never said EF was better than SS - he simply said it has more throughput (which is 100% true). He also said that it might be worth waiting 1 week with getting the weak auras as they would (should*) be updated next week. Not the first time you jump the gun with assumptions mate.

[Riemu2k3]

You are right. His statement itself was true. English is not my native language and I didn't have time to paraphrase it the way I wanted it to sound. I also never said his statement was false, I said he posted inaccurate information.

Nevertheless, I try to read the statements not for the facts they have, but what people who have no clue about paladins or the discussion going on in here, will most likely take away from the post.

And what he basically told was, dont make him a SS WA, wait one week for the EF macro and he should switch to EF because it has more throughput. And that advice is just wrong. The facts are right, but the advice is wrong.

Please tell me that's not exactly what one would assume by only reading this post without having any kind of background information.

EDIT: I'm in a bad mood today. Should have just not posted. So, sorry for that.