2nd Wing LFR tuning is interesting

[ItachiZaku]

If you're good enough to do proving grounds gold you're probably too good for LFR to begin with

Yep.

I do love that Nazgrim is knocking fools out. It's a message that we shouldn't be killing him, that he should be the new leader of the Orcs, if not outright Warchief.

[Kaiarra]

What amused me today is that after leading everyone by the nose through the entirety of a P2 LFR, I actually had people listen to me when I was using a /s STOP ON BOSS macro, but... I had to tell our DPS to attack him through the third defensive stance anyhow because the raid DPS was just way too low to kill him before zerk if we hadn't DPS's through defensive. Especially with those guys that seem to not be able to avoid standing in a huge whirling axe of death/fire lines so they ended up repeatedly licking the floor. Would seem better to go for the whole totally ignore defensive and nuke boss tactic as LFR DPS is abysmal, but with the amount of people in LFR that can't avoid that axe... ugh. So much pain.

And DShamans is just overkill for LFR. I mean the fight basically consists of don't stand in the shit but when the shit is absolutely everywhere + LFR... yeah, that doesn't end well.

Gala and Jug I'd say feel fine for LFR purposes. Waaaaay too much trash before Shamans though, and Shaman/Naz need some nerf love.

Just... /sigh @ LFR being more hassle than raid leading my bloody 10-man; bugger doing it again when you get no reward and you're lucky to even see a thank you at the end of it. Will see how it's looking in a few weeks, but if it doesn't improve and if it still requires someone to constantly lead the group or wipe forever, then I guess I'll be joining the flex/normals only club. I'm assuming its just because it's the first week and the average LFR player expects to put in zero effort before pressing that queue button.

[Somewowguy]

I had the displeasure of running 2nd wing today. I blame blizzard entirely on the 14 stacks of det we got during it. Timeless alts who dont know how to play their class arent helping, but they fucked up on tuning and mechanics. Its not hard, at all. But blizzard has been training the lfr crowd to ignore mechanics since it was released, and now they want to put shit in that people have to pay attention. LFR was fine, it was a joke, easy VP, easy trinkets/token you missed in normals/heroics, it had its place. You have to read now, and im convinced half the player base cant even spell cat.

The last time I had that little amount of fun playing video games was when Quest 64 dropped. They turn the mmo market into arcade action, tunnel vision, click me button, garbage gameplay for years, then expect their new army of window lickers to read shit and pay attention? booooo. BOOOOOOOOOO! You hear me GC!? You are bad and should feel bad.

[Nobleshield]

The problem in general is that LFR is a futile effort to get people that otherwise would not raid at all into raids. The mistake is assuming these people WANT to raid, and want to bother with all the things that raiders do (studying fights, optimizing play, etc). LFR sucks so bad recently because the devs have made every effort to shoehorn everyone into a raid-like environment, instead of accepting the fact that the era of raiding as the endgame is in its twilight and coming to a close. It's no wonder half the people in LFR suck, they aren't raiders. They don't WANT to be raiders. But Blizzard says "Hey try this thing that lets you see what you're missing because raiding is so awesome and you should really be doing it, because everyone else is and don't you want to be like everyone else?" and has LFR as the progress for people that don't care about raids.

[pallyopness]

its like the dungeon journal doesnt even exist.....real hard to open it, look at defensive stance on nazgrim and realize "HEY I should stop dpsing..." I mean to the guy wanting his hand held...they already do, you want them to play the game for you NOT help. Seriously....cant dedicate time to raid with a guild but can waste hours upon hours upon hours wiping on easy ass bosses that drop shit gear lol.

[Nobleshield]

its like the dungeon journal doesnt even exist.....real hard to open it, look at defensive stance on nazgrim and realize "HEY I should stop dpsing..." I mean to the guy wanting his hand held...they already do, you want them to play the game for you NOT help. Seriously....cant dedicate time to raid with a guild but can waste hours upon hours upon hours wiping on easy ass bosses that drop shit gear lol.

You've missed the point completely. The general person going into LFR doesn't WANT to look up mechanics in the dungeon journal. They don't want to raid at all, they do it because of the gear upgrades and because Blizzard can't fathom the idea that raiding is dying off and instead want to push as many people into raids so they can continue to justify spending resources creating new ones.

This is basically the equivalent of taking someone who likes to watch (US) football on TV and maybe play Madden and trying to push them to play Flag Football and offer to pay them for it in the hopes that they'll aspire to the real thing, when they don't actually want to play at all, but hey they need the money. That's basically what LFR does: It tries to entice people that don't want to raid and don't want to do things raiders do with raid-like content to persuade them to "graduate" to raiders.

[pallyopness]

You've missed the point completely. The general person going into LFR doesn't WANT to look up mechanics in the dungeon journal. They don't want to raid at all, they do it because of the gear upgrades and because Blizzard can't fathom the idea that raiding is dying off and instead want to push as many people into raids so they can continue to justify spending resources creating new ones.

This is basically the equivalent of taking someone who likes to watch (US) football on TV and maybe play Madden and trying to push them to play Flag Football and offer to pay them for it in the hopes that they'll aspire to the real thing, when they don't actually want to play at all, but hey they need the money. That's basically what LFR does: It tries to entice people that don't want to raid and don't want to do things raiders do with raid-like content to persuade them to "graduate" to raiders.

Then don't raid, it's easy as that...if raiding was dying as MAINLY those that are bad at it say it is, then let it. No one forces you to raid. Blizzard doesnt force you. Simply don't raid. Raiding takes commitment and time, which is why it gives better gear. If people cannot understand that too bad for them go play mario kart.

Also to counter your paying people to play football instead of watch it because they need money...If you do not raid you do not need the high end gear now do you? Nothing you do dictates the necessity to have ANY gear from raid. Especially with Timeless....there is ZERO BOSSES OR ENCOUNTERS that you could come across in a NON RAID environment that would facilitate the NEED for higher gear. Once again DESIRE is different than NEED.

So if you want the better gear, do what it takes and quit being lazy screwing up others runs....read the fucking journal that blizz put at your fingertips or look it up online. Either way takes 2 minutes and saves what I hear HOURS. Also, for those saying they don't have time for a game, well this would speed up the time you are doing it now doesn't it...Nothing like purposely making the experience bad by going in blind and dumbfounded.

[clevin]

I had the displeasure of running 2nd wing today. I blame blizzard entirely on the 14 stacks of det we got during it. Timeless alts who dont know how to play their class arent helping, but they fucked up on tuning and mechanics. Its not hard, at all. But blizzard has been training the lfr crowd to ignore mechanics since it was released, and now they want to put shit in that people have to pay attention.

Blizzard seems to do this. TBC, like vanilla, was pretty hardcore, even in the heroic 5 mans. Wrath... was stupidly easy. But then the veered back toward hard 5 mans etc early in Cata.... and then back again to super easy in MoP.

the problem is that people react to the game by leaving when it's not what they want... a good chunk of people who liked TBC and vanilla found LK to easy and left. Then, when they made it harder, you have people who came to the game during LK who thought things were too hard. Those folks left. Then.... You see where this is going. They can't do this to LFR or it will be a disaster. If they want LFR to be something that mediocre players can win at fairly easily then an encounter like Dark Shaman can't be there. It's WAY too hectic for that crowd. It's not hard even for someone like me, a normal mode raider who has some experience and skill, but for people who've never raided outside of LFR it's got to be pretty intense. And Nazgrim? Requires actual tactics and situational awareness of when to attack and what adds to prioritize. Again, pretty easy for any experienced normal mode raider but not for people who never raided.

[pallyopness]

Blizzard seems to do this. TBC, like vanilla, was pretty hardcore, even in the heroic 5 mans. Wrath... was stupidly easy. But then the veered back toward hard 5 mans etc early in Cata.... and then back again to super easy in MoP.

the problem is that people react to the game by leaving when it's not what they want... a good chunk of people who liked TBC and vanilla found LK to easy and left. Then, when they made it harder, you have people who came to the game during LK who thought things were too hard. Those folks left. Then.... You see where this is going. They can't do this to LFR or it will be a disaster. If they want LFR to be something that mediocre players can win at fairly easily then an encounter like Dark Shaman can't be there. It's WAY too hectic for that crowd. It's not hard even for someone like me, a normal mode raider who has some experience and skill, but for people who've never raided outside of LFR it's got to be pretty intense. And Nazgrim? Requires actual tactics and situational awareness of when to attack and what adds to prioritize. Again, pretty easy for any experienced normal mode raider but not for people who never raided.

To be fair, do non normal mode raiders mean they can't read giant capped letters in the middle of their screen with a loud noise saying "STOP DPSING BOSS!". I mean if they wanna be lazy and not look up fights whatever, but that is no excuse for not reacting to directions being called out with PLENTY OF TIME to listen before shit goes bad. Simple instructions during the fight are not hard to comprehend or do.

Or before the boss fight starts..."when he goes into defensive stance stop attacking the boss"....I mean if you fail to prepare for the encounter and then fail to listen to instructions, then, you should never raid in general because you are not the intended audience for it.

[Somewowguy]

Then don't raid, it's easy as that...if raiding was dying as MAINLY those that are bad at it say it is, then let it. No one forces you to raid. Blizzard doesnt force you. Simply don't raid. Raiding takes commitment and time, which is why it gives better gear. If people cannot understand that too bad for them go play mario kart.

Also to counter your paying people to play football instead of watch it because they need money...If you do not raid you do not need the high end gear now do you? Nothing you do dictates the necessity to have ANY gear from raid. Especially with Timeless....there is ZERO BOSSES OR ENCOUNTERS that you could come across in a NON RAID environment that would facilitate the NEED for higher gear. Once again DESIRE is different than NEED.

So if you want the better gear, do what it takes and quit being lazy screwing up others runs....read the fucking journal that blizz put at your fingertips or look it up online. Either way takes 2 minutes and saves what I hear HOURS. Also, for those saying they don't have time for a game, well this would speed up the time you are doing it now doesn't it...Nothing like purposely making the experience bad by going in blind and dumbfounded.

Its funny because racing against skilled players online in mario kart takes more skill and observation then any WoW raid ever made =P

[Nobleshield]

Then don't raid, it's easy as that...if raiding was dying as MAINLY those that are bad at it say it is, then let it. No one forces you to raid. Blizzard doesnt force you. Simply don't raid. Raiding takes commitment and time, which is why it gives better gear. If people cannot understand that too bad for them go play mario kart.

And you are STILL missing the point. The point is that Blizzard has LFR to try and FORCE players who would not otherwise raid into raids, because they (i.e. Blizzard) cannot grasp the idea of a world without raiding as the focus.

People "need" better gear whether or not they raid because gear is the only measure of power that exists in this game, so there has to be something to better yourself. It's not a matter of "Well if you don't raid you don't need the gear" because then all of those people would get all their Timeless gear and then unsubscribe. Instead of evolving the game to have various endgame paths (actual endgame paths that reward actual character progression, not points that are all but useless), they have chosen to stick with the idea that raiding is the only "true" endgame, and tried to shoehorn everyone into that by LFR offering higher rewards to "entice" players into trying raiding out, in the hopes that they say "Hey this raiding thing is pretty neat, I'd like to do this" and graduate to fulltime raiders.

[Normie]

So if you want the better gear, do what it takes and quit being lazy screwing up others runs....read the fucking journal that blizz put at your fingertips or look it up online. Either way takes 2 minutes and saves what I hear HOURS. Also, for those saying they don't have time for a game, well this would speed up the time you are doing it now doesn't it...Nothing like purposely making the experience bad by going in blind and dumbfounded.

Do you think that berating the intended audience for Blizzard's tuning problems is going to help you?

- - - Updated - - -

And you are STILL missing the point. The point is that Blizzard has LFR to try and FORCE players who would not otherwise raid into raids, because they (i.e. Blizzard) cannot grasp the idea of a world without raiding as the focus.[...]

they have chosen to stick with the idea that raiding is the only "true" endgame, and tried to shoehorn everyone into that by LFR offering higher rewards to "entice" players into trying raiding out, in the hopes that they say "Hey this raiding thing is pretty neat, I'd like to do this" and graduate to fulltime raiders.

Blizzard does have some kind of huge blind spot about raiding, but I don't think that they expect LFR will "entice" anyone, ever, into organized raiding. There's a group of deluded players who think LFR should be a "stepping stone" but in reality all LFR is, is a way that Blizzard's art and development work can be experienced by more than a tiny percentage of players.

[pallyopness]

Do you think that berating the intended audience for Blizzard's tuning problems is going to help you?

Help me? LOL. You won't see me in lfr so won't make a difference on a personal level. But I do feel they need to learn accountability when they put themselves into a situation that requires group effort. Do you think babying them and believing what they do is fine will help the community? There is no tuning issues in lfr. It's player issues just to clarify your statement a little bit and show where you went wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

And you are STILL missing the point. The point is that Blizzard has LFR to try and FORCE players who would not otherwise raid into raids, because they (i.e. Blizzard) cannot grasp the idea of a world without raiding as the focus.

People "need" better gear whether or not they raid because gear is the only measure of power that exists in this game, so there has to be something to better yourself. It's not a matter of "Well if you don't raid you don't need the gear" because then all of those people would get all their Timeless gear and then unsubscribe. Instead of evolving the game to have various endgame paths (actual endgame paths that reward actual character progression, not points that are all but useless), they have chosen to stick with the idea that raiding is the only "true" endgame, and tried to shoehorn everyone into that by LFR offering higher rewards to "entice" players into trying raiding out, in the hopes that they say "Hey this raiding thing is pretty neat, I'd like to do this" and graduate to fulltime raiders.

I ask you this...what end game could there possibly be outside of raiding? also, please show where ANY mmo has had success without raiding as the end game focus?

Dont give me this bullshit about 5 man dungeons either as it is similar to raiding but smaller scale which means essentially it is a 5 man raid. so lets hear it. All I hear is a bunch of bitching about a game you can CHOOSE to play or not to play. Sounds like many are making the wrong choice to me.

Just because raiding is too hard for some doesn't mean its too hard for all. Spout off about how little of the playerbase raids all you want but Blizzard is focusing raids for a reason. So maybe it's because it's the best possible course of end game.

[Alvito]

With the item lvl gap from LFR to norm/heroic within a week or two ppl that do structured raids will stop doing LFR and pick up flex gear for the gaps they need to fill. This will make LFR hit a new lvl of horrible.

[Odina]

And you are STILL missing the point. The point is that Blizzard has LFR to try and FORCE players who would not otherwise raid into raids, because they (i.e. Blizzard) cannot grasp the idea of a world without raiding as the focus.

People "need" better gear whether or not they raid because gear is the only measure of power that exists in this game, so there has to be something to better yourself. It's not a matter of "Well if you don't raid you don't need the gear" because then all of those people would get all their Timeless gear and then unsubscribe. Instead of evolving the game to have various endgame paths (actual endgame paths that reward actual character progression, not points that are all but useless), they have chosen to stick with the idea that raiding is the only "true" endgame, and tried to shoehorn everyone into that by LFR offering higher rewards to "entice" players into trying raiding out, in the hopes that they say "Hey this raiding thing is pretty neat, I'd like to do this" and graduate to fulltime raiders.

Actually blizz put in LFR because many casuals that could not commit to schedueld raids still wanted to raid and the solution that blizzard came up for say the guy that works night shift and comes home at 3 AM yet still watns to raid was to have a tool that could still let him.

That you can't fathom that it was more than just blizzards way of pushing people into raiding is your own problem! The origional issue was a more casual player without set playing times asking them to be able to participate in the raids that were created and released. Blizzard instead of making raids less important listened to said player base and gave them a way to do it. Now we have the white knights jumping all over these forums making post to the tinfoli hat extreem that it was blizz that was tryign to force peopel into raiding.

There was no need to force people into raiding and LFR did not force them into it. Most casuals wanted to participate in the raids, see the bosses, see the cutsceen, see the end of the expansion etc etc. LFR was the tool blizz implemented to give them that option. To now say it was a scheem to force people into raiding is silly! I get it you don't like how raids are , you find them too hard for the avg player etc etc they are meant to be the pinicle of the pve experience in this game and are supose to challenge your pve knowledge and controll of your toon in a pve setting. The avg player is not supose to do well when just jumping in raids they must practice and become raiders if they want to do well it's rather simple just like the avg player is not supose to be good at pvp when they start and must learn how to counter class/spec combos to get good.

[Sithalos]

I had people doing sub 30k with 3 determination stacks :|

That's what happens when you do nothing but auto attack. But hey, they need to see content too, right?

[Normie]

Help me? LOL. You won't see me in lfr so won't make a difference on a personal level. But I do feel they need to learn accountability when they put themselves into a situation that requires group effort. Do you think babying them and believing what they do is fine will help the community? There is no tuning issues in lfr. It's player issues just to clarify your statement a little bit and show where you went wrong.

No.

What you don't understand or won't acknowledge is that there is nothing that can be done or ever will be done about the overall quality or ability of players in LFR. (For that matter there's very little that can be done about the overall quality or ability of players in any segment of the game including normal and heroic raiding.)

The only solution to player frustration is adjustments to the encounters from Blizzard. That, or just leaving LFR and probably the game.

Now while there may be a small number of players who wish WoW was a private island populated only by elite players (but only ones not QUITE as good as "me"), that's definitely not how Blizzard looks at WoW.

[threads]

Wiped 4 times on the first boss so I left. The quality of players seems to have decreased with this patch.

[pallyopness]

No.

What you don't understand or won't acknowledge is that there is nothing that can be done or ever will be done about the overall quality or ability of players in LFR. (For that matter there's very little that can be done about the overall quality or ability of players in any segment of the game including normal and heroic raiding.)

The only solution to player frustration is adjustments to the encounters from Blizzard. That, or just leaving LFR and probably the game.

Now while there may be a small number of players who wish WoW was a private island populated only by elite players (but only ones not QUITE as good as "me"), that's definitely not how Blizzard looks at WoW.

What you fail to understand is that Blizzard is already nerfing an encounter beyond all measure for players to see content. But I don't think you will find them doing much more otherwise they might as well just mail everyone lfr epics at the drop of a patch. What you also need to realize is that it is not the reponsibility of blizzard to make it so all players can do everything in game. Players need to learn how to get better...they dont even have to be good for lfr...just a heartbeat and it would fall....sorry I don't believe in a society that rewards poor performance. I don't believe in first place trophies for every participant because they tried...

[Normie]

What you fail to understand is that Blizzard is already nerfing an encounter beyond all measure for players to see content. But I don't think you will find them doing much more otherwise they might as well just mail everyone lfr epics at the drop of a patch. What you also need to realize is that it is not the reponsibility of blizzard to make it so all players can do everything in game. Players need to learn how to get better...they dont even have to be good for lfr...just a heartbeat and it would fall....sorry I don't believe in a society that rewards poor performance. I don't believe in first place trophies for every participant because they tried...

You're just spouting a bunch of unhelpful, unoriginal elitist memes, and you're dragging the thread off-topic. Sorry, I'm not interested in pursuing your rant with you.