Why should raiding be exclusive?

[m777]

So they better get on it making sure content takes about 10 minutes to complete and is free.

yes they should give everyone option to start in max level with full epics some people dont have enough time to level up and want to see late game boss why should blizzard stop them ? they are paying as much as everyone else !!!! i say give everyone unlimited gold best gear in the game and make raiding more easy so everyone can play the game !!

[shise]

Why do people feel raid content should be exclusive only to "good" players?

Why is it that if you want to go into an instance, fight a big boss that has mechanics, and want to work together with a larger group of people, you HAVE to put in 15 hours a week and be good at the game?

Why should the new boss models, the new instance architecture, the new art, all be exclusive to people that can put in X amount of time and put out X amount of DPS?

I don't really get why raiding, as an activity, needs to be exclusive. I mean, do we require everyone to be 100% physically fit to play any sort of football? We don't, so why should there be prerequisites for engaging in raiding as an activity? I don't see why Normals/Heroics should be the only difficulties of raiding.

I'm not saying that there should be un-exclusive modes of raiding (I know LFR and Flex exist), I'm asking why people think LFR and Flex should be removed, and that raiding should only be exclusive to "good" players

You have 6 raiding options:


a) Looking For Raid

b) Flex

c) Normal 10m

d) Heroic 10m

e) Normal 25m

f) Heroic 25m

You pretty much only need to be a "good" player for the heroic versions, because normal is about not screwing up with fire on the ground etc.


What else do you want?

[Deleted]

But what gets me the MOST mad.....is we barely touched heroic ToT, we got 1 boss down and we had maybe 2 thunderforged pieces per person...and what does LFR SoO drop? Gear that is BETTER than what we had. We worked our asses off in ToT in comparison and we get told 6 months later "tough luck, deal with it, its the way the game is now" and now LFR heroes 5 weeks in SoO were out gearing us, utter bullshit.

So yea, i want LFR to burn a painful death. and Flex is MUCH better (mechanics need to be followed and is easier only due to gear) and i wish it would kill off LFR. It wont but i can dream....

I somewhat agree with you, but disagree massively as well. I raid normals and heroics because I can devote time to it, but most of all i enjoy it and really enjoy playing with the players in my guild. We get on, we laugh and we kill bosses (mostly!)

So yes, SoO LFR drops gear almost equal to ToT heroic (not better), but for me i don't care about everyone else, i'm interested in my guild, my character and the fun and enjoyment i get out of raiding with my friends and killing bosses that those solo players cannot.

So my advice is not to worry about what those players are doing, enjoy your normal and heroic raiding with people you know and have a good environment to play in, LFR players do not get that nice environment!

[Vaelorian]

The question should not be: "Why should raiding be exclusive?"
The question should be: "Why is raiding the only (the most efficient) way to progress ones character?"
Or rather: "Why is LFR the only "real" method of progressing ones character when you cannot commit to a raiding guild?"
Or rather: "Why are people "forced" (you know the meaning) to run LFR when before we had lots of other ways (loads of 5 mans)?" - I know the Blizzard answer, but it is faulty. It is just cheap, thats why.

The first question only creates a bad discussion which we have seen so many times on these forums.

[Deleted]

I don't think raiding should be exclusive to "good" players with a lot of free time, but I'm also against raid modes that allow people to:
1. be completely obnoxious without consequences
2. get rewards without any effort (AFKing in raids or simply not trying to improve in any way)
3. play a multiplayer game without ever interacting with other people
So in a sense I want raids to be exclusive, but exclusive to the people who behave decently and positively contribute to the in-game community. Unfortunately the current implementation of LFR doesn't achieve that (Flex is great IMO).

[Dasani]

I don't have the time, skill, or commitment to be an Olympic athlete, but I still want to experience what it's like to compete and win medals. Therefor they should allow in absolutely anyone who wants to compete and award everyone a gold medal just for being there. Why should only the people who dedicate enormous quantities of their time and energy towards a specific goal be the only ones who can reap the benefits of that kind of dedication? It just isn't fair. I have 3 jobs, and 12 kids, and I just don't have time to work at being an olympic level athlete, but I want to experience what its like to be one. I want to be able to go to the stadiums and see everything that all those people who put on the games spend so much time and money building and setting up. Why should only the olympic athletes get to enjoy all of that stuff? It is more fair if everyone can go. Afterall, the Olympics are just "games", it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

It would make everyone a lot happier. Except of course the olympic athletes who for some reason are now all pissed off that they aren't the only ones getting gold medals anymore. How shallow and pathetic their lives must be that they must acquire all these gold medals only for themselves and feel that somehow it lessens them if other people are allowed to get them.

Edit: By the way, I was just kidding. I do have the time, skill, and commitment to be an Olympic athlete.

[JackWest]

Pretty sure I spent more time on some LFR bosses than heroic SoO bosses.

That's because most people in LFR are retarded. Do you remember Durumu LFR? I do, and I also remember more than half raid dying on beam. It was the same every week(I am a normal/hc raider, and the only reason I was doing LFR was for legendary quest....phew, so happy it's already over).

[Imnick]

You have 6 raiding options:


a) Looking For Raid

b) Flex

c) Normal 10m

d) Heroic 10m

e) Normal 25m

f) Heroic 25m

You pretty much only need to be a "good" player for the heroic versions, because normal is about not screwing up with fire on the ground etc.


What else do you want?

Please read the topic, the title is misleading. This is a topic addressed to people who want to remove LFR and Flex, not a commentary on the game at present.

[Mawnix]

People pay for the game, people gain the opportunity/access to everything it has to offer.

Everyone should be able to experience everything, hence why I support LFR/Flex.

[Snorkles]

I don't have the time, skill, or commitment to be an Olympic athlete, but I still want to experience what it's like to compete and win medals. Therefor they should allow in absolutely anyone who wants to compete and award everyone a gold medal just for being there. Why should only the people who dedicate enormous quantities of their time and energy towards a specific goal be the only ones who can reap the benefits of that kind of dedication? It just isn't fair. I have 3 jobs, and 12 kids, and I just don't have time to work at being an olympic level athlete, but I want to experience what its like to be one. I want to be able to go to the stadiums and see everything that all those people who put on the games spend so much time and money building and setting up. Why should only the olympic athletes get to enjoy all of that stuff? It is more fair if everyone can go.

It would make everyone a lot happier. Except of course the olympic athletes who for some reason are now all pissed off that they aren't the only ones getting gold medals anymore. How shallow and pathetic their lives must be that they must acquire all these gold medals only for themselves and feel that somehow it lessens them if other people are allowed to get them.

Edit: By the way, I was just kidding. I do have the time, skill, and commitment to be an Olympic athlete.

You're right. Lets just remove every single sporting event in the world except the absolute pinnacle - The Olympics, World Cup, Wimbledon etc. Only those good enough to compete in those events are allowed to play. Everyone else better not even think of playing sports at any level other than the top. We wouldn't want an Olympic athlete getting upset because average Joe just won his local schools 100m sprint after all!

[JackWest]

Why do people feel raid content should be exclusive only to "good" players?

Why is it that if you want to go into an instance, fight a big boss that has mechanics, and want to work together with a larger group of people, you HAVE to put in 15 hours a week and be good at the game?

Why should the new boss models, the new instance architecture, the new art, all be exclusive to people that can put in X amount of time and put out X amount of DPS?

I don't really get why raiding, as an activity, needs to be exclusive. I mean, do we require everyone to be 100% physically fit to play any sort of football? We don't, so why should there be prerequisites for engaging in raiding as an activity? I don't see why Normals/Heroics should be the only difficulties of raiding.

I'm not saying that there should be un-exclusive modes of raiding (I know LFR and Flex exist), I'm asking why people think LFR and Flex should be removed, and that raiding should only be exclusive to "good" players

Ask yourself why was LFR introduced in the first place. Asnwer is: so people who don't have time to raid, can see the content. So....go and see the content, but why you should get rep, loot, and legendary quest credit for sitting in one place, pressing 3 buttons and not following a single tactic? Because that's what the majority of people in LFR are doing. As I said a minute ago, the last time I was doing LFR, people are dying due to not moving from aoe on the ground, and failing at the most simple mechanics. Are you REALLY calling that "Raiding"? That's why LFR should be removed.
And you are totally wrong if you think you have to spend 15 hour+ to raid. With my guild we are raiding like 8-9 hour only and we are 13/14 normal. We cannot kill Garrosh yet due to tanks not having gear.

[Otimus]

lol I know, what I'm saying is loads of people are saying "get rid of LFR and Flex." And I'm questioning, why get rid of them? Why should Normal/Heroics be the only difficulties left?

There's people, too, who want to get rid of all difficulties, and have it only have one hard difficulty, like pre-WOTLK. (I certainly don't agree with that)

[Deleted]

I just bought a new Xbox-game, why do i have to play the whole campaign before I can get to the final boss!!!!!!???!!?

[Imnick]

It seems perfectly reasonable to me to get rep, loot and legendary progress at a much slower place if you put in minimal effort, and a much faster pace (and higher quality) if you put in more effort

Fortunately that's the system we already have

I just bought a new Xbox-game, why do i have to play the whole campaign before I can get to the final boss!!!!!!???!!?

presumably for the same reason you can't skip straight to Heroic Garrosh

[Allatar]

What amused me the most about arguments like this is the number of people who say that they do LFR as they have 'no time'. Then you hear guild members who do LFR saying it took them an entire Saturday afternoon to a). find a group and b). complete one wing. That's a hell of a lot more time than it takes to run the same amount of content on Normal.

Personally, I don't care who gets what loot from running LFR as it doesn't affect me in any way at all as I don't have the need to run it myself. I get equally annoyed by both ends of the '<xyz> difficulty needs to be removed from the game!'. Nobody should be dictating to anyone what content should be available to them, easy, hard, faceroll, impossible, whatever. It's spiteful and childish and creates a toxic environment in forums.

[Vaelorian]

What amused me the most about arguments like this is the number of people who say that they do LFR as they have 'no time'. Then you hear guild members who do LFR saying it took them an entire Saturday afternoon to a). find a group and b). complete one wing. That's a hell of a lot more time than it takes to run the same amount of content on Normal.

Maybe take a step back and see that raiding in a guild usually requires somekind of schedule or atleast a predetermined time to be online to go raid. Some people just cannot do that (or rather WILL NOT, which is the same to them).

I could spend 10 hours a week to WoW. Which on that basis would make me eligible for a raiding guild who raids 2/3 evenings. Alas I cannot be online on set days. Sometimes I am online during the day sometimes during the evenings and on random days too. This does not make me a good candidate to recruit.
It also makes any guild I would make very much fail from the get go to get "like minded players" because everyone is so random. I would need a HUGE guildroster and would make raids on the fly. That is just not going to happen.

[ItachiZaku]

lol I know, what I'm saying is loads of people are saying "get rid of LFR and Flex." And I'm questioning, why get rid of them? Why should Normal/Heroics be the only difficulties left?

It is because some tyrant GMs and Raid leaders require their kids to run LFR and Flex to get gear filler slots. Really, that's the main issue. Those people do not want to have to run the same shit 3x per toon.

- - - Updated - - -

What amused me the most about arguments like this is the number of people who say that they do LFR as they have 'no time'. Then you hear guild members who do LFR saying it took them an entire Saturday afternoon to a). find a group and b). complete one wing. That's a hell of a lot more time than it takes to run the same amount of content on Normal.

Listen here, my old raid team raids these days: Tuesday (I have Agents of Shield and The Originals to watch), Thursday (college football and ladies night), Saturday (college football all day). So, I'm sorry... raid nights and my social nights collide. RL > video games

So yeah, if I saw fuck the No Fun League (NFL) and I can sit all day on a sunday and crank out some raids, or tuesday after work for reset (early afternoon, but not in the evening)... the time issue is a real thing.

[miffy23]

Why do people feel raid content should be exclusive only to "good" players?

Why is it that if you want to go into an instance, fight a big boss that has mechanics, and want to work together with a larger group of people, you HAVE to put in 15 hours a week and be good at the game?

Why should the new boss models, the new instance architecture, the new art, all be exclusive to people that can put in X amount of time and put out X amount of DPS?

I don't really get why raiding, as an activity, needs to be exclusive. I mean, do we require everyone to be 100% physically fit to play any sort of football? We don't, so why should there be prerequisites for engaging in raiding as an activity? I don't see why Normals/Heroics should be the only difficulties of raiding.

I'm not saying that there should be un-exclusive modes of raiding (I know LFR and Flex exist), I'm asking why people think LFR and Flex should be removed, and that raiding should only be exclusive to "good" players

Most rational people actually playing the game aren't *shrug*. Don't confuse the vocal few on this forum and elsewhere as any kind of actual representation of the WoW population. The numbers suggest non-exclusive raiding (based on progression gating, for example) is a hugely more popular form of it than the older models.

When you have the time to go to these forums and rant about why you think other people shouldn't be able to queue and down the same content you are doing, only on a lower difficulty level, you obviously have too much time Which kind of invalidates the time they spent, in their mind. It just hits a really sensitive spot with a dedicated few, which I will never understand.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I raid 20hrs per week (4hrs, 5 times a week) I might play 2-3 hours outside that, raiding is about teamwork, commitment, communication and depending on all the others you raid with to: do their part, show up for raids and help eachother.

Find any of that in LFR? No, because it's not raiding. Flex is everything LFR should've been, I also enjoy the brainless LFR to gear my meaningless alts. You could remove gear from LFR, flex, normal and heroic and I'd still raid heroic. Doubt LFR would be this popular if it wasn't for the free purples.

LFR would be good if it had some sort of requirements apart from the ilvl requirement.
Proving grounds could be a measure for example, another would be to give higher chance for loot if you spend as much time as possible casting/using global cooldowns, penalized for taking unnessesary damage, rewarded if you use personal cooldowns when you take unavoidable damage.

Imo this brainless type of playing is bad for the game, it's needed to be there for content to those without the schedule to fit a raiding guild but as it is now I honestly think it's what caused the 5m sub drops since wotlk/early cata.

[Svettmormor]

This is so silly.. If you want something, work for it, put your time and effort into it.

This is how the world works. Why should WoW be diffrent?

Also.. I raid 9 hours a week.. 3 hours 3 evenings per week. I've cleared 11/14 Heroic. To clear Normal, 2 hours one night a week would be enough, it will just take you longer to do so. Obviously.

It's silly that people feel that they are entitled to get access to everything without putting any work into it.