Why should raiding be exclusive?

[Granyala]

Which would be true if you actually did get the Flex item, or the normal mode item, or the HC item.
Until then it's gogo lfr.

And then you don't get the LFR item because...

RNG JUST DOESN'T LIKE YOU... ._.

But back then (at least during bc), old raid content wasn't flushed down the toilet when a new raid tier was introduced. The average raider still was busy visiting t5 content before going black temple or even hyjal. And for the bads and twinks there still was Karazhan.

Yeah It had it's advantages.
But it also created a lot of problems like "feeder guilds" and having to chose between "Seeing content" and "playing with people I like".

[Otimus]

Instead they chase the majority away by giving them dull as fuck content. Gotcha.

Is anyone that does LFR truely having fun. OR are they doing it because it's the only way to obtain gear? If it's not fun then guess where the subs are going.

Heroic raiders love raiding. Normal raiders... i guess they do? LFR players are playing such a dull version of the game. It's not hate I have for them. It's pity.

95% of the cases, I imagine, are because it's all they've got to do, and it's why it's not helping to stave off the losses like I imagine Blizzard figured.


Ruining the leveling game, along with the overall importance of the world, probably hurt the casual side of things far more than anything else, though. Throwing casuals into the endgame mix pretty much hastened the effect that was going to eventually have, I think.

[Louis CK]

lol I know, what I'm saying is loads of people are saying "get rid of LFR and Flex." And I'm questioning, why get rid of them? Why should Normal/Heroics be the only difficulties left?

Can you show me anywhere that anyone has suggested they remove Flex?

Also, the qualms with LFR are either due to the social environment, or with pseudo-hardcore types (i.e. their professed performance/progression is far greater than what they can do or have actually done) who hide behind a keyboard and pretend to be hardcore and see LFR as a threat to their epeens.

True hardcore players (i.e. those who are actually skilled and progress consistently) are rarely seen suggesting the removal of LFR, because it has no affect on their gameplay.

Thus, the only valid complaint about LFR and suggesting it's removal would be that of the social environment that anonymous matchamking has created.

-----

As far as your OP, there is no exclusivity to Normal/HM raiding apart from the block the player themselves put up. Blizzard isn't keeping anyone out of it, the players make that choice themselves by deciding to either not take the time/effort to maximize their potential or by choosing to do other things with their time. Neither of which is a bad thing, but they're also not Blizzard's fault.

I have the time to do Normal/HM raiding, but I don't have time to level tons of alts and run LFR on them all week like a large portion of the community seems to. Does that mean that alts are exclusive? No, it just means I choose not to do that because I have neither the time, nor the motivation to bother with something like that. Same reason many don't get into Normal/HM raiding.

[gamingmuscle]

While this is correct, I think it's only fair that people question a design that incentivizes people to do content they don't want to do, by giving them player power which helps whit what they want to do.

I don't feel it is designed to encourage it, but it definitely isn't designed to prevent it.

Obviously Blizzard shares this concern, because they have done quite a lot to de-incentivize doing LFR for raiders over the course of MOP.

Imho, now that Flex is here, there is no reason to do LFR anymore, since the flex item is superior anyway.

Flex is the only thing blizzard has done, that I've bothered to notice =P, to make LFR less attractive.

[ShimmerSwirl]

Fun fact: there are other leagues besides the professional ones. Yes there are even clubs that do sports just for fun, without any sort of challenge or pressure involved.

Ofc they don't get to win the championship trophies.

How does one "have fun" in a sport without the challenge of competition? Sports by their very nature are defined by competition, and having a winner and a loser. Its literally impossible just "play for fun" in any sport, because every single action in the sport is based on the premise of you beating your opponent. Even on a ultra-casual beer league softball team, when you step into the batters box you are trying to get a base hit so you can score runs, because the goal of the game is to score runs to win. When you play the field, you try to catch every ball hit at you because you are trying to stop the other team from scoring because you want them to lose.

I think you would be very hard pressed to find a single sports team that does not try to beat their opponent, and thats at every level from backyard football to professional athletes. The skill level may change between those levels, but the rules and the competition do not.

[Nillo]

And then you don't get the LFR item because...

RNG JUST DOESN'T LIKE YOU... ._.

Which in Flex,Normal,Heroic only slightly annoys me because well I was generally having fun doing it.
In LFR on the other hand......

[Granyala]

You and silver9172 don't seem the grasp what raiding in high end guilds is. No one is forcing you to do anything, but it is only because of unwritten rules that raiding like that works in the first place. It sucks to lose items to someone else, but what really gets someones blood boiling is to see that same guy not bothering to enchant and gem it properly, meaning that it could have gone to much better use.

And apparently, you don't either.

Sorry but there is no such thing as a person that doesn't enchant and gem his loot in a guild that stands before the END BOSS on the highest Difficulty 7 weeks into the Content tier.

A person like that would -instantly- be kicked. And with good reason.

How does one "have fun" in a sport without the challenge of competition?

How should I know?
I have 0 clue how people have fun in sports period, since I hate sports.

Which in Flex,Normal,Heroic only slightly annoys me because well I was generally having fun doing it.
In LFR on the other hand......

Yeah I feel you there man. i really do.
God how I raged when I forced myself to do LFR for that stupid legendary, when my guild didn't have all bosses on farm or I had to pass for someone that needed actual gear.... gaah.

[Namor of Muradin]

You're acting as if every casual raider is trying to leech off a Normal/Heroic raiding guild and ask to be carried.

This is an absurd and completely off the mark conclusion to draw after reading what Draahl posted.

He is saying people who don't try are not going to be carried for any period of time in any social setting in which cooperative behavior is necessary for team success, as is the case in raiding. Only if you are using "casual" to mean someone who is not willing to commit to a team and work to improve themselves to support the team would your conclusion make any sense, and I suspect this is not your definition of "casual".

[anaxie]

I don't feel it is designed to encourage it, but it definitely isn't designed to prevent it.

Legendary items at the start of the reset. Powerful superior trinkets? Lets not even talk about INTRO tiers where you have subpar 5 man gear to replace. LFR encourages EVERYONE to run it no matter the skill gap.

[Nillo]

Thus, the only valid complaint about LFR and suggesting it's removal would be that of the social environment that anonymous matchamking has created.

On a side note: LFR is similar to the vile nature found in moba games which is why some of them have heavily enforced rules against bad behavior (League of Legends tribunal, Dota League was very quick with bans,.....), which is something that LFR would desperately need (because the kick function is lacking to say the least).

[Wildmoon]

Yeah, a required Kael'thas kill in order to enter T6 surely wasn't an artificial gate.

It's not like something prevent you to try all of them though. You are free to try.

[anaxie]

How does one "have fun" in a sport without the challenge of competition? Sports by their very nature are defined by competition, and having a winner and a loser. Its literally impossible just "play for fun" in any sport, because every single action in the sport is based on the premise of you beating your opponent. Even on a ultra-casual beer league softball team, when you step into the batters box you are trying to get a base hit so you can score runs, because the goal of the game is to score runs to win. When you play the field, you try to catch every ball hit at you because you are trying to stop the other team from scoring because you want them to lose.

I think you would be very hard pressed to find a single sports team that does not try to beat their opponent, and thats at every level from backyard football to professional athletes. The skill level may change between those levels, but the rules and the competition do not.

If LFR was football everyone would be on the same team running towards the same goal. But to make it difficult most of the team would get tiered and need to sit down every 5 steps.

The opposing team would be cardboard cutouts placed onto the field to avoid.

[Granyala]

It's not like something prevent you to try all of them though. You are free to try.

No you weren't, because you couldn't get into the dungeon w/o having done the quests.

If LFR was football everyone would be on the same team running towards the same goal. But to make it difficult most of the team would get tiered and need to sit down every 5 steps.

The opposing team would be cardboard cutouts placed onto the field to avoid.

Wrong.

75% of the team would be AFK or running in random directions and 3-4 Guys would walk towards the goal while avoiding the Cardboard enemy.

[anaxie]

It's not like something prevent you to try all of them though. You are free to try.

Kael did prevent you from entry into Hyjal/BT until the removal at a certain point. Please don't say idiotic things.

[anaxie]

No you weren't, because you couldn't get into the dungeon w/o having done the quests.



Wrong.

75% of the team would be AFK or running in random directions and 3-4 Guys would walk towards the goal while avoiding the Cardboard enemy.

Awesome, I love your interpretation.

[Chuckadoodle]

So, let me see if I am following this thread correctly,

Many of the HC raiders are not "hating" on LFR.
The complaint is that for true progression raiding (who cares that the "race" is over, personal accomplishment to hit 14/14H for the FoS is just as important) the SoO trinkets even at the LFR level are just too good to not have even compared to Herioc Thunderforged ToT trinkets in many cases.
Hence since the fact that the amount of true 10/25 man Herioc progression guilds in on the decline or at best at a minimum there are more players vying for that raid spot than there are guilds to support it. So players like Anaxie are "forced" to go to LFR and do Thok to ensure their RL/GM doesnt say ehh Jimmy the new guy who just joined has the trinkets so you are gonna take a seat until you get them.

TL;DR:

While no one is saying remove LFR, the fact that the trinkets are superior to ToT (especially) with the nerf to RPPM are forcing player who really dont need it or want to do it to do it.

[Strafir]

And apparently, you don't either.

Sorry but there is no such thing as a person that doesn't enchant and gem his loot in a guild that stands before the END BOSS on the highest Difficulty 7 weeks into the Content tier.

A person like that would -instantly- be kicked. And with good reason.

Your argument against anything being thrown at you so far has been "but you really don't have to" but what I said applies to any other guild. Making raiding work comes down to respect and willingness to go the additional mile for someone else because you know he would do the same for you. Someone who half asses his job doesn't have a spot in 10 mans especially because everything will eventually fall apart because of it.

You do LFR to not be part of the problem and it might give enough incentive to another player to also get it over with which in the end definitely yields better results.

[anaxie]

So, let me see if I am following this thread correctly,

Many of the HC raiders are not "hating" on LFR.
The complaint is that for true progression raiding (who cares that the "race" is over, personal accomplishment to hit 14/14H for the FoS is just as important) the SoO trinkets even at the LFR level are just too good to not have even compared to Herioc Thunderforged ToT trinkets in many cases.
Hence since the fact that the amount of true 10/25 man Herioc progression guilds in on the decline or at best at a minimum there are more players vying for that raid spot than there are guilds to support it. So players like Anaxie are "forced" to go to LFR and do Thok to ensure their RL/GM doesnt say ehh Jimmy the new guy who just joined has the trinkets so you are gonna take a seat until you get them.

TL;DR:

While no one is saying remove LFR, the fact that the trinkets are superior to ToT (especially) with the nerf to RPPM are forcing player who really dont need it or want to do it to do it.

You were doing good until this point. Don't need it to be a invaluable asset to the guild. I however, take pride in putting as much effort into our 35 player team effort as possible. Something that is desperately lacking since players like myself are called the "1%"

[slime]

4 of the most worthless, useless people on Earth think that both LFR and Flex should be removed. Don't worry, they aren't going anywhere, and don't listen to them. Most logical people understand those modes are there for exactly that reason - to let people see this content. The exclusive ones are Normal and Heroic... and the need for them to be exclusive is really only based on the group you go with, meaning if thet are willing to continuously wipe on bosses to get other players caught up to speed.

[Granyala]

The complaint is that for true progression raiding (who cares that the "race" is over, personal accomplishment to hit 14/14H for the FoS is just as important) the SoO trinkets even at the LFR level are just too good to not have even compared to Herioc Thunderforged ToT trinkets in many cases.

Pretty much, yes.

Solution:
Weaken Trinkets, to the point that they are inferior to last tiers HC trinkets, but still better than last Tiers LFR trinkets, so LFRers can have nice stuff.

Do make the tier bonuses NOT work with a LFR/normal combination (leave Normal/HC combos funtional) and by logical extension, give the Tier pieces from World bosses a different Item-ID, to make them work with both LFR and Normal Tier versions or just remove them from those bosses.

There ya go: Now there truly is nothing for the HC raider in LFR, except pets, which can be bought via AH.

Making raiding work comes down to respect and willingness to go the additional mile for someone else because you know he would do the same for you.

Limit that to Hardcore progression raiding where most chars are actually undergeared for the encounters, and we are in total agreement.