Application to a raiding guild

[Twoflower]

Personally all I look at in an application is that their character is as geared and progressed as we want and I will look over their logs and I feel like this is nearly everything I need to make a decision. With regards to whether someone will fit in socially I don't really care, if their raid performance is of a high enough calibre they will have to go a long way not to fit in. Judging by other guilds application forms my view is in the minority and I would be interested to hear why.

Cause I dont wanna raid with assholes. Specially if it is several times a week for several hours.

[Odina]

hahaha and people wonder why guilds are dying... it's because stupid shit like applications.

See the aplication is working as intended... you would never fil it out as that guild is not for you..and you are not for them so you wont fill out out thus neither of you are wasting eachothers time!

Workign as intended™

[Babylonius]

hahaha and people wonder why guilds are dying... it's because stupid shit like applications.

Guilds are dying? I still see tons and tons of them and more popping up every day. Some guilds are dying, but it has 100% to do with more than applications.

[Marxman]

ask shit ingame, run a trial raid, see how the player is doing... ofc it could be facilitated by blizzard too... via an ingame application tool that is actually decent.

"Ask shit in-game."
We do, after the application is received.

"Run a trial raid."
Possibly waste a precious raid slot for a night? No thank you.

"See how the player is doing."
We do, after the application is received, screened, and approved.

Applications are just the first step of the screening process. You fill out an app, mail it in, it gets screened by recruitment. If you pass, then you undergo a vent interview. If you pass that, you get to do a few trial raids.

Seems like a lot, but maintaining quality raiders requires a lot of effort on the part of our officers. We expect the same amount of effort from potential applicants. People like to make fun of it being like a job interview... but why wouldn't it be? Joining a raid team is a lot like joining a new company.

ive been on trials & vent interviews & both have gone really well, when ive had them. i have no problem with them & infact prefer them, rather than having to write a whole wall of writing when its so much easier to talk about what youve done. 7 years of writing about previous raid xp can get a bit much.

Part of the written application is seeing how much effort you're willing to put forth. Usually guilds aren't looking for your life story, just a brief overview of your past guilds, reasons for leaving said guilds, and raiding experience. if you're unwilling to spend 15 mins filling out an application, maybe you'd be unwilling to spend 10 mins reading/watching a boss guide, or our strategy forums, etc.

[Louis CK]

"Ask shit in-game."
We do, after the application is received.

"Run a trial raid."
Possibly waste a precious raid slot for a night? No thank you.

"See how the player is doing."
We do, after the application is received, screened, and approved.

Applications are just the first step of the screening process. You fill out an app, mail it in, it gets screened by recruitment. If you pass, then you undergo a vent interview. If you pass that, you get to do a few trial raids.

Seems like a lot, but maintaining quality raiders requires a lot of effort on the part of our officers. We expect the same amount of effort from potential applicants. People like to make fun of it being like a job interview... but why wouldn't it be? Joining a raid team is a lot like joining a new company.

And that's good not only for the guild, but for the applicant. I don't want to join a raiding guild that doesn't ask me to prove myself, because that can only mean one thing: that no one else in the guild has been asked to prove themselves. And why would I want to waste my time with a raiding guild that accepts anyone and everyone? When I'm with a raiding guild I want to progress, and I want to know that others are skilled enough and like minded to help achieve that. It's all about the team and how each person supports that team. And I want to know that I can rely on my teammates.

There are guilds that are all about the social thing and don't care about progression and they'll invite anyone. And there's nothing wrong with that. But that's not the type of guild I want to raid with.

[Migraine]

I'm not saying that we don't pick quality applicants, anyone that I recruit I point out that they need to perform at least to the level of people of the same class if not above to gurantee their spot. Personally I just don't feel like I need chapter and verse on what bosses someone killed in previous expansions the same as I don't need them to explain gearing choices, there is generally a right and sarong way to do things and if someone has picked the wrong way it doesn't matter how elequent they are in the explanation it is still wrong.

There is plenty opportunities on farm to trial people and asking as I can see a spot in the roster at the end of the trial ie. I need their class, their logs show they do the right output and don't die more the they should then generally I am happy to trial someone. Occasionally we fail a trial but most of the time our judgement is sound with recruitment.

[Mad_Murdock]

"Ask shit in-game."
We do, after the application is received.

The interesting hard to answer questions is, How many perfect fits have you missed because of the Application process ?

I'm more curious, How many people had a great application but didn't work out ? How many made it all the way in the door and turned out not to be a good fit. I use to do the technical interviews for my division. Lots of folks made it in the door with a great application and a great interview and then they were brought to me, my personal goal was to crush their souls if they overstated their technical knowledge. I used their applications against them. The more they claimed to know, the harder the technical interview would be.

What we found at the end was pretty inconclusive. Most of the folks that were the super stars on the team, got hired by other back channels. The ones that made it through the whole process still didn't work out. What we could never fully determine is the people who failed hard on the technical interview might have turned out to be great employees had they got some OJT with the group. Afterall, what you do and don't know, doesn't really translate into what you can learn and how fast.

[Louis CK]

The interesting hard to answer questions is, How many perfect fits have you missed because of the Application process ?

I'm more curious, How many people had a great application but didn't work out ? How many made it all the way in the door and turned out not to be a good fit. I use to do the technical interviews for my division. Lots of folks made it in the door with a great application and a great interview and then they were brought to me, my personal goal was to crush their souls if they overstated their technical knowledge. I used their applications against them. The more they claimed to know, the harder the technical interview would be.

What we found at the end was pretty inconclusive. Most of the folks that were the super stars on the team, got hired by other back channels. The ones that made it through the whole process still didn't work out. What we could never fully determine is the people who failed hard on the technical interview might have turned out to be great employees had they got some OJT with the group. Afterall, what you do and don't know, doesn't really translate into what you can learn and how fast.

While an application process may not give you a 100% indication of a player, dropping it completely in the "hope" that people will just "somehow be perfect fits" isn't a viable option either.

I've done a lot of interviewing in my time as well for a high performance, highly competitive team of 90 or so individuals I managed in a "boiler room" environment. Sometimes people are just great interviewees, and a week later you realize they didn't have the balls they claimed to have had and don't get the results I need. There are others who I've gambled on because I saw a spark in them I felt I could work with even though on paper they were terrible, and they turned out to be some of my best employees.

And while this process does get me some bad eggs from time to time, it beats the hell out of my predecssor's method of hiring just about anyone who applied. Our rentention rate went up, the employee's enjoyment of their job went up when the room was filled with other highly competitive individuals, and our ability to produce numbers skyrocketed.

Sure, I may have turned away a couple people who could have worked out, but the results I brought to the table far outweighed a half dozen individuals I may have lost that my predecessor would have hired.

--

Again, it all boils down to what you're attempting to achieve. If you're a social raiding guild and just want people to have fun hanging out with no real drive for performance or progression, then a quick chat in vent will tell you just about all you want to know.

But for those who are looking for performance and progression, it takes a bit more of a process. And as I've said before, I don't want to join a team that has no screening process because it means that I don't know if I can trust my team to achieve the same goals as I seek to achieve.

[Deleted]

hahaha and people wonder why guilds are dying... it's because stupid shit like applications.

Yah applications are stupid, guilds should let ANYBODY in regardless of what they recruit that'll work out fine.

*facepalm*

[Illiterate]

An app should as for logs, UI, and at least a brief guild history. I don't think anybody cares about your life story when looking for a raider. The rest can be gathered from voice chat and trial runs.

[Babylonius]

Applications help to narrow the search pool. I always thought its as simple as make your application what you're looking for. If you're looking for a good raider then ask more raid questions, if you're looking for a good person then ask personal questions.

People who refuse to submit good applications, regardless of the length and specificity of the application are simply saying that they don't want to be in the guild, imo. If you're not going to put the time into making the app good, then why put the time into it at all?

[Marxman]

The interesting hard to answer questions is, How many perfect fits have you missed because of the Application process ?

A few I'm sure, but I trust our recruitment officers and guild master to find the needles in the haystack. They've managed to keep our progression team strong for almost 9 years now. There's only a handful of guilds in the world that can make a statement like that.

I'm more curious, How many people had a great application but didn't work out ? How many made it all the way in the door and turned out not to be a good fit. I use to do the technical interviews for my division. Lots of folks made it in the door with a great application and a great interview and then they were brought to me, my personal goal was to crush their souls if they overstated their technical knowledge. I used their applications against them. The more they claimed to know, the harder the technical interview would be.

What we found at the end was pretty inconclusive. Most of the folks that were the super stars on the team, got hired by other back channels. The ones that made it through the whole process still didn't work out. What we could never fully determine is the people who failed hard on the technical interview might have turned out to be great employees had they got some OJT with the group. Afterall, what you do and don't know, doesn't really translate into what you can learn and how fast.

Sure, plenty of people have good logs, an eloquent written app and vent interview, seem to be a great personality-fit and a good player... and just crash and burn in trial raids. It happens often. The pressure of progression raiding isn't for everyone. Some people can't handle it.

Others have shoddy written apps and an uninspiring interview and turn out to be all-stars. The hard part of the screening process is looking past errors and seeing the potential in an app. Are his logs solid? Does he have a lot of previous raid experience? Screening is a difficult job and I don't envy our officers.

[Deleted]

ask shit ingame, run a trial raid, see how the player is doing... ofc it could be facilitated by blizzard too... via an ingame application tool that is actually decent.

me and my friend in tbc(me hunter, him rogue) caused our new guild's class leaders to quit the guild... after they denied our applications due to lack of raiding experience we seeked the GM ingame and aksed him to join a pug with us and after the run he invited us to the guild ... the first raid we proceeded to mop the floor with both the hunter class leader and the rogue one... and they left mid raid... just gquit during the last boss fight.

That's when we stopped doing applications and instead spoke to the GM's directly to go on pugs with us on trial runs.


sadly we are both a shell of our former selves now...

But isn't it more work to ask them questions in-game and run a trial raid. Imagine having to run a trial raid with every applicant - even the really shitty ones. That would suck.

It's been a while since I was on the receiving end of an application (about a year) but since then I've written a fair few applications to guilds that for the most part were better progressed than I was and not once have I been declined.

At first I whisper an officer to talk and see if the guild and I share the same interests and after that I'll tailor my application (I have one semi-updated at all times) to the guild. At times I've even been able to skip the application after talking with said officers.

I like the idea of an application. It gives you a good idea of the personality of the person applying. It's also a way for someone with less experience/gear to show they're worth an application.

[Kalmah]

As far as I'm concerned an application should contain a brief personal presentation (including raiding experience, expectations and goals), WoL logs, and the character's armory.

That's it.

[Daerio]

I think an app should have questions about their class mechanics, like have them describe their rotation. That is something people can google and just copy/paste, but it may be an indicator for questions you should ask in a vent interview, for example. Logs are important too, if you have anybody who's going to bother looking at them. If you have somebody who isn't going to even bother making logs available, or has no idea what they are, or doesn't realize somebody else in their raid has been logging the entire time - well, that's a strong indicator too.

As far as people complaining about even needing to do an app - apps aren't just for guilds to be picky, they're also for the protection of the applicant. What about people who are server transferring? There are plenty of guilds that will accept shitty apps, and they run with a 40 man roster. They let you pay your money to xfer over, and then ride the bench, and maybe you get 1 or 2 bosses where you're tested. This is not the kind of guild many people want to join.

There are plenty of guilds you can join without apping, especially the casual kind that will probably be a better fit for you if you aren't the kind of person who's willing to fill out an app, or do any research into boss fights beforehand.

[Deleted]

Pointless to ask for logs. They will only link ones for the nights they were on fire rather than in the fire (unless you want to use it as an idiot test). I don't even click the links to logs; I just get them myself from wow-heroes.

You should ask them how they would approach whichever bosses you are currently progressing on (or have killed but very recently), to see how quickly they can be up to speed for your raid. This is far better than asking them to explain gearing, gemming, etc because it isn't something they can easily copy paste from elsewhere.

I'd also ask for a screenshot of UI during a raid boss encounter (not afking in Shrine).

I would also insist that they do not have their account hidden in WoW Progress. Detective work is possible without this but takes much longer. I also fail to think of any valid reason why someone would do this.

[Uvwaex]

hahaha and people wonder why guilds are dying... it's because stupid shit like applications.

Pretty sure the expac I filled the most applications out in was Wrath. Most other guilds since then have been random/through trade...

[CptAwesome]

I don't get the "why leave previous guild" part. Granted, the GM has a peculiar interest in knowing that but any negative Reason will not be revealed honestly by a sane applicant.
It's like asking "tell us all your negative sides that you are hiding which would cause your applicatio nto be declined"

As someone that does recruitment, it's just an honesty check. If I am in the least bit suspicious I will investigate and get the other side of the story, so saying any "sane" applicant would lie to me means that I will exclusively recruit crazy people.

Most people are honest about it though, plus there are certain guilds where you are more willing to believe that the officer/GM did in fact throw a tantrum for no reason and kick them because he can't keep a stable roster for more than a month and there are other guilds where I have trouble believing that the GM acted a dickhead because I play with him semi-regularly. Either way, I will find out the truth.

EDIT: Also I should mention that just because someone ditched their old guild does not automatically make me think they will do the same to mine. A lot of people leave guilds due to lack of progress and that is a perfectly acceptable reason to move on. If I could not provide an environment where new bosses were dying at a decent rate, I would expect people to start bailing on me as well.

[Smight]

Applications are nice placeholders for information and responses, but why ask information you can readily ascertain? If I find someone interested, I can pull their logs, I can look them over and check absolutely everything about spec/glyphs/talents from 5 minutes on a log and armory. If you're after brevity and feel that an application is required, very the basics you need to search and make it an open forum. I don't really see value in applications when vent interviewing is superior and gives you a more accurate assessment of personality.

As for stuff you can't find, sometimes guild history and the like, people can simply make it up. In my opinion, if you're providing a raid spot, it's not on you to perform and over analyze who you bring in. If they fail your 'trial' type period when filling a spot, then too bad.

I'd never ask for ui and all that. If a good player plays on a black and white screen with zero add ons, it does not matter. There are so many performance measures and resources to glean information on performance from that you can evaluate if you're really going to be that picky.

Tl;dr get the basic info and vent interview; get real personality and fit info versus manufactured typed responses if this matters enough to mandate an app

[Deleted]

I always been a fan of the "Write your own application" template. It tells you far more about the person applying. How well and serious he writes his application tells you if his ambitions and capabilities are on-par with the guilds. One of my older guild that I was a part of the recruitment officers used to tell people to write their own applications, but to include a lot of personal info about themselves as a person as we want to know who we are raiding with, aswell as relevant raiding information.

Having been a part of recruiting in a bunch of guilds over the past 6 years, this is what I look for in an application.

-Structure, how he writes and formulate the application tells you a lot about the player

-Personal Info, who the player that you are recruiting is one of the most important things. A great player that does not fit well into the team and match the personality of the rest of the raid often hurts your raid more than it gains. The key to having a succesful raid team is the entire team being on the same wave length both in terms of goals, passion and personality. I have seen guilds crumble just because small factions of the guild did not work well together and did not share the same sense of humor.

-Previous raiding experience, for obvious reasons

-Time spent playing wow, how much time does the player have available, will he play outside of raids, is he reliable?

-Previous guilds, why did he leave them? Will he leave ours?

-Class knowledge, naturally, how much experience does he have of his class and how well does he play it?

-World of Logs, anything that shows his actual performance, something that can back up his words about himself with some concrete information about how he plays.

- - - Updated - - -

The interesting hard to answer questions is, How many perfect fits have you missed because of the Application process ?

None? The guilds that are serious enough to take an application and the players to lazy to take 10 minutes to write one are two things that would never fit together. That is fairly obvious to understand, I think even you could understand that.

So hillarious to see all the bottom feeders popping up in these threads not realising why they will never get into a good guild.
Stick to your /2 I got xx item level plx invite to guild and see how that goes for you. You are not, and will not ever be, wanted in a serious raiding team.