Troll Warlocks

[purebalance]

Wouldn't berserking have one of those erratic scalings with fight lengths where it's better on a short fight depending on how many uses it can irk in also so like lets say a 4 minute fight favors it whereas a 5 min 45 sec fight wouldn't whereas a 6 min+ fight would once again?

[Deleted]

My comment was not rude nor was I being passive aggressive. If it came across that way then that was because you found it there.

I assumed you were a level 90 warlock (or player even) who was looking for a race change.

The difference between LFR and Normal can be more than 30 ilvl. This is massive. Troll can gain you 1k dps at 520ilvl and 20k dps at 560. You asked for 'numbers' which I assume you mean as tangible dps numbers. When people are doing anywhere between 200 and 400k average dps this becomes very, very difficult to quantify. The fact that dps can also vary immensely between 2 pulls on the same boss with the same gear (better trinket procs, having to move less to mechanics) further complicates the matter.

I could tell you that one week as a Goblin I did 320k dps on Iron Juggernaut as Demonology. The next week I changed to troll and did 360k having only changed my bracers. This is anecdotal because the first week my trinket didn't proc on the pull and I was forever having to move from sawblades and borer drills, whereas the week after everything lined up and managed to avoid being targeted by every mechanic under the sun.

As Alarinth said, all we can give you is anecdotal evidence that yes, Troll is better, but it is not possible for us to say that everyone in 540ilvl will see a 5k dps increase and everyone in 560ilvl will see a 15k dps increase. We just can't because stats and stuff can vary massively between similar ilvl players and of course every time you pull a boss something different can happen.

[Deleted]

Liquidsteel is right. It's not that he does not want to give you the information you want, because he does not like your attitude - it just is impossible without many informations that we are missing.
Your gear, your skill, your raids skill, your raids gear, the encounter etc.
Last but not least, if you aim to play in LFR, Flex and maybe Normal Modes, then choose the race that you think is the prettiest and ignore the racials.

[purebalance]

It is not the 20k dps difference he is claiming though. You might get lucky with stuff lining up, but the actual racial itself was not the 20k

[Deleted]

Meh I knew someone would pick that out. I'm not claiming it's a fully mathed out 20k dps increase across the board, I was just using numbers to highlight how big of a difference it can make between two different characters with vastly different gear.

- - - Updated - - -

Having said that, for my current ilvl of 571 in Demonology spec on a 200 second fight in Simcraft:

Average dps for Troll - 418k
Average dps for Orc - 405k
Average dps for Blood Elf - 400k

Max burst for Troll - 898k.
Max burst for Orc - 850k.
Max burst for Blood Elf - 828k.

This is a fight length which favours Berserking. Simcraft isn't perfect and the APL causes it use Berserking on CD whereas you would be able to squeeze out more dps if you held onto your second use for your third Dark Soul, but I digress.

If we bump the fight up to 250 seconds we get the following results:

Average dps for Troll - 401k
Average dps for Orc - 391k
Average dps for Blood Elf - 386k.

Take from this what you will, but between Troll and Blood Elf is a clear example (at 'average' heroic ilvl) of what is pretty sizeable dps increase.

[Deleted]

My comment was not rude nor was I being passive aggressive. If it came across that way then that was because you found it there.

I assumed you were a level 90 warlock (or player even) who was looking for a race change.

The difference between LFR and Normal can be more than 30 ilvl. This is massive. Troll can gain you 1k dps at 520ilvl and 20k dps at 560. You asked for 'numbers' which I assume you mean as tangible dps numbers. When people are doing anywhere between 200 and 400k average dps this becomes very, very difficult to quantify. The fact that dps can also vary immensely between 2 pulls on the same boss with the same gear (better trinket procs, having to move less to mechanics) further complicates the matter.

I could tell you that one week as a Goblin I did 320k dps on Iron Juggernaut as Demonology. The next week I changed to troll and did 360k having only changed my bracers. This is anecdotal because the first week my trinket didn't proc on the pull and I was forever having to move from sawblades and borer drills, whereas the week after everything lined up and managed to avoid being targeted by every mechanic under the sun.

As Alarinth said, all we can give you is anecdotal evidence that yes, Troll is better, but it is not possible for us to say that everyone in 540ilvl will see a 5k dps increase and everyone in 560ilvl will see a 15k dps increase. We just can't because stats and stuff can vary massively between similar ilvl players and of course every time you pull a boss something different can happen.

You over thinking this mild curiosity of mine and are making this much more difficult for yourself. I never asked for a chart which contains plotted data of x DPS at x ilvl (altho that would be amazing! haha) and also there is absolutely no point to reference fights as dynamic as Iron Juggernaut, you seem to understand this yourself because you mentioned just how much data changes during such encounters! So why do you keep bringing it up? Keep it simple, something without all these variables would be easier to standardize such as Patchwerk fight. Yes, I know, it would not represent realistic raid situation accurately but that's fine.

Now with all that said, I do appreciate your data on your 571 ilvl warlock, that is actually helpful where as all that bloated information before it was not necessary. Some more similar data with lower item level would be very nice from someone kind of enough to spare some time to write that up, since I'm very unlikely to reach 571 duo to the fact I'm not willing to dedicate so much time to raiding or wow. Now you might ask me why bother with all of this if you won't be raiding hard (Melian )? My answer to that would be why not? I don't want to gimp myself if the difference is major enough.

[Deleted]

If you find a WL with "correct" gearing around that ilvl it will surely be no problem to sim him.
Adding to what Liquidsteel postet:
I simmed a BiS equipped WL in a long fight (Thok for example) and there the difference was like this:


You didn't mention the specc you want to play, did you? As you see, comparing this results with Liquidsteels, the difference in racial-profits is quite huge depending on it.

EDIT:

It is not the 20k dps difference he is claiming though. You might get lucky with stuff lining up, but the actual racial itself was not the 20k

True - although I understood it as an example that had completely random numbers.

EDIT2:

Now you might ask me why bother with all of this if you won't be raiding hard (Melian )? My answer to that would be why not? I don't want to gimp myself if the difference is major enough.

I understand your concern. I'm doing this with many of my alts to - although I almost never play them regularly.
Nevertheless: It is nonsense

[Deleted]

If you find a WL with "correct" gearing around that ilvl it will surely be no problem to sim him.
Adding to what Liquidsteel postet:
I simmed a BiS equipped WL in a long fight (Thok for example) and there the difference was like this:

You didn't mention the specc you want to play, did you? As you see, comparing this results with Liquidsteels, the difference in racial-profits is quite huge depending on it.

EDIT:

True - although I understood it as an example that had completely random numbers.

EDIT2:

I understand your concern. I'm doing this with many of my alts to - although I almost never play them regularly.
Nevertheless: It is nonsense

Indeed I haven't mentioned the spec which I want to play, probably affliction but I like all 3 of the specs to be honest, at atleast on paper. Will see how it turns out in-game once I'm done power levelling myself with RAF which is why I did not specify a spec

[Deleted]

it also depends on whether or not you use pet or which spec you play. as afflic i would say troll since afflic favors haste so much. for destro it makes sense that troll is better since GoSac tends to be the better option for destro. for demo i would say orc is better since you will love bloodfury and the increased dmg from pet but this is mainly my opinion and not based on simcrafts etc.

[Zargul]

If you find a WL with "correct" gearing around that ilvl it will surely be no problem to sim him.
Adding to what Liquidsteel postet:
I simmed a BiS equipped WL in a long fight (Thok for example) and there the difference was like this:

This is slightly more than a 1% difference. I doubt it'd be noticeable in most game situations.

To the OP: I'm not sure what you are trying to get from your post. People told you it didn't matter a lot and/or that troll was the best by a small margin. Were you trying to get someone to tell you that an undead warlock would be secretly better than a troll? You won't "gimp" yourself with any race/class combination, especially if you don't do much raiding, let alone cutting-edge raiding.

If you were really concerned about min-maxing your raid performance, you'd likely have to literally change classes between fights based on what your raid leader thinks is the most viable at the moment.

Eating stat food and using elixirs and potions will contribute more to your dps than being a troll versus an orc or forsaken. Moreover, using the correct spells at the correct time and knowing game mechanics will provide more damage than your racial.

Just because the top X parses on WoL are trolls does not mean that trolls are the best. It might, but it also might mean that trolls are perceived to be the best, and thus the players who want to top the logs pick trolls. There's no causality implied, just correlation. Blue posters have gone over this many times for many years in response to people complaining about imbalances in the game.

[Maulscreech]

Another point that could be interesting to the OP is that there have been some dev tweets that have stated that they intend to remove dot snapshotting next expansion. If this change goes through it will also help offset the dps gain from being a troll compared to the other races (assuming racials even remain the same for WoD).

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about racials for this reason, as you're unlikely to be gimping yourself too much from next expansion (and if you're making a new char now, next expansion and onwards is the relevant content for this kind of min-maxing).

[Deleted]

afaik, they have also mentioned that they are changing racials as well.

[ACRL]

The difference between Troll and Orc for a full heroic geared player is around 20k dps.

Where do you find this crap?

[Santoisms]

Greetings, all of you Trolls!

So, it's clear to me that Trolls are one of the best Horde races for Warlocks, but just how significant are their racial abilities in practice?

I'm assuming that race choice ultimately has very minor impact on over all DPS during the course of the encounter, however the burst potential of Troll Warlocks compared to other races is what piqued my interest, which should be significant enough considering their racial gives them 20% haste?

What are your thoughts? Would appreciate some data regarding this, it will make it easier for me to chose which race to play as. Aesthetically I like Orcs, Trolls and Undead whom I prefer slightly more than the 2 other races so if the racial bonus is not very significant I would probably end up with a female Undead Warlock.

Thank you

TBH IMO I really think Troll is absolutely insane and should be used by most if not all classes that can be it. Yes the burst from Troll is much higher but snapshotting dots as well as faster CBs in 10sec trinket windows and Imp Swarm cooldown just makes this race insane. From a minmaxing perspective if you're not Troll you probably don't raid at that level or you don't care about topping charts, it is also sad that you cannot top charts as a Goblin Warlock for example which is why they are trying to nerf racials next expansion. With that being said, simcraft states troll is only 5k increase from orc but that is under perfect situations, however the utility the haste brings to not only spells as well as cooldowns just simply cannot be ignored and should be taken full advantage of.

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Where do you find this crap?

Mathematically also if your burst is higher your sustained is also higher. Of course other factors apply like how fast it dies, procs, and minimal movement from mechanics as well as several types of RNG. But "this crap" of being 20k higher than Orc is likely even if simcraft doesn't state it.

[Deleted]

What you are writing is just not true, Santoisms.

First, there are MANY WLs ranked in the top5 on every encounter, that are no trolls.
Second, it is completely weird to state, that a 2min CD is better compared to a 3min CD under "perfect situations" - actually it's the other way around.
Third the only specc that has utility with haste and cooldowns is demonolgy with Imp Swarm. The other speccs might have synergy - but no utility.
Last but not least a 20k DPS increase IS crap. This will of course be possible for affliction in a short burn fight, yes. But for other speccs - especially destruction (which is our strongest specc on MOST (not all) encounters) - 20k is a myth. You can say "even if simcraft does noth state it" but that does not make it right.

[Werst]

The troll advantage is that we are end tier so a percentage based cooldown is at its most powerful. Stacked with other percentage based CD's this gets especially powerful when combined with snapshotting. Welcome to balance nightmare for the devs. Orc has the advantage that its CD perfectly mates to the warlock cooldown darksoul though since its a flat value its less potent now than say in the first tier or in challenge modes.

For WoD I kind of wish you could pick/customize further with the only permanent thing being your "skin"....ie appearance. So I might like the undead appearance/casting so I'd go with that permanently, pick between either troll/orc/goblin racials (balanced a bit) as a "major", then a minor/defensive (snare redux, stun redux, goblin leap, etc), then some cheesy passive (underwater breathing, bonus to archy, bonus to herbing, etc). You might make races prebuilt as they are now but then at 90 (or 100) you can customize them. Seems the best way to ensure "balance". Either everyone picks the same (so it IS balanced) or it tells blizz what they need to fix. Either way its far more balanced than it is now.

[Turturin the Warlock]

Yes, either that or just get rid of dps racials altogether.

[Santoisms]

The troll advantage is that we are end tier so a percentage based cooldown is at its most powerful. Stacked with other percentage based CD's this gets especially powerful when combined with snapshotting. Welcome to balance nightmare for the devs. Orc has the advantage that its CD perfectly mates to the warlock cooldown darksoul though since its a flat value its less potent now than say in the first tier or in challenge modes.

For WoD I kind of wish you could pick/customize further with the only permanent thing being your "skin"....ie appearance. So I might like the undead appearance/casting so I'd go with that permanently, pick between either troll/orc/goblin racials (balanced a bit) as a "major", then a minor/defensive (snare redux, stun redux, goblin leap, etc), then some cheesy passive (underwater breathing, bonus to archy, bonus to herbing, etc). You might make races prebuilt as they are now but then at 90 (or 100) you can customize them. Seems the best way to ensure "balance". Either everyone picks the same (so it IS balanced) or it tells blizz what they need to fix. Either way its far more balanced than it is now.

This. Melian you're not understanding the power of haste as it stands now. Considering SP is lower in terms of priority than Haste, I'll take the ladder and take Berserking. If the game gives you all of these tools it'd be dumb to not use them to your full advantage.

- - - Updated - - -

Last but not least a 20k DPS increase IS crap. This will of course be possible for affliction in a short burn fight, yes. But for other speccs - especially destruction (which is our strongest specc on MOST (not all) encounters) - 20k is a myth. You can say "even if simcraft does noth state it" but that does not make it right.

Snapshotting trinkets with faster CBs in Destruction? I'll still take Troll.

[Cebel]

What you are writing is just not true, Santoisms.

First, there are MANY WLs ranked in the top5 on every encounter, that are no trolls.
Second, it is completely weird to state, that a 2min CD is better compared to a 3min CD under "perfect situations" - actually it's the other way around.
Third the only specc that has utility with haste and cooldowns is demonolgy with Imp Swarm. The other speccs might have synergy - but no utility.
Last but not least a 20k DPS increase IS crap. This will of course be possible for affliction in a short burn fight, yes. But for other speccs - especially destruction (which is our strongest specc on MOST (not all) encounters) - 20k is a myth. You can say "even if simcraft does noth state it" but that does not make it right.

you just completely discredited yourself by saying destro was the strongest spec on most encounters. Theres literally like 4-5 fights MAX that destro is good on.

As to the OP, until WoD lets us know if the racials will be changed ( please god remove them so we can all just play what we like to look at ), go troll. Its better than all other racials for all other specs. The end.

[Deleted]

you just completely discredited yourself by saying destro was the strongest spec on most encounters. Theres literally like 4-5 fights MAX that destro is good on.

Destro is the strongest specc on almost every encounter during progress. Affliction is stronger on several when they are on farm and you are padding like hell.
That increases your DPS of course, but it does not do anything to beat the encounter. And there are several cases where it depends on your raids tactics AND if you are playing 10 or 25men. I'm in a 10men raid - you seem to be in a 25men guild (at least thats what wowprogress states).

Second part of your post is correct - no one doubts that and it was said several times. I just protested against the people who highly exaggerate the advance.

EDIT:
If you want to say that destro is not even good on more than 4-5 encounters, then you are discrediting yourself. A simple look at raidbots would show you, that on average destro is as strong if not even stronger than affliction. In 25men & 10men as well as on average and max ranked. So what are you trying to tell us?