Welfare Tier Sets

[Jaylock]

Back in WotLK we had tier sets that players could buy with badges of valor. Essentially it became known as "Welfare Tier Sets." This upset players greatly, and it didnt work out like blizzard had thought it would. So they no longer went that route in future patches and expansions. They brought back tier tokens for the specific pieces that drops only in raids, which is what the player base really wanted.

In Mop, we have LFR tier sets that arguably can be considered "Welfare" tier sets. Blizzard is known for trying out things to see if they resonate well with their game, as well as the player base as a whole. With the removal of tier sets from LFR in Warlords, I believe blizzard (through trial and massive error) they learned that providing such welfare tier sets to players was a bad idea. A bad idea for the game, a bad idea for raiding, a bad idea for the player base as a whole. This is why I believe that they decided to remove them from future LFR instances because they know LFR isn't really where they wanted players to progress. They constantly keep reminding us that LFR was primarily thought of as "tourist mode" and that although its good to allow players who would not normally get to see the content, can now see it, it was really supposed to be a stepping stone to build interest in real raiding.

Having said that, do you believe Blizzard will continue to "try things out" to see if they resonate with the player base or not? Or, do you think they are now trying to bring the game back to the proven model where subscribers were at their peak (in TBC and WotLK)?

Welfare epics is never a good idea. I think Blizzard gets that, but they have to keep some welfare ways to obtain purples for the lesser skilled players. There is no free lunch, no matter how much people think there should be.

[Stonecloak]

Back in WotLK we had tier sets that players could buy with badges of valor. Essentially it became known as "Welfare Tier Sets." This upset players greatly, and it didnt work out like blizzard had thought it would. So they no longer went that route in future patches and expansions. They brought back tier tokens for the specific pieces that drops only in raids, which is what the player base really wanted.

In Mop, we have LFR tier sets that arguably can be considered "Welfare" tier sets. Blizzard is known for trying out things to see if they resonate well with their game, as well as the player base as a whole. With the removal of tier sets from LFR in Warlords, I believe blizzard (through trial and massive error) they learned that providing such welfare tier sets to players was a bad idea. A bad idea for the game, a bad idea for raiding, a bad idea for the player base as a whole. This is why I believe that they decided to remove them from future LFR instances because they know LFR isn't really where they wanted players to progress. They constantly keep reminding us that LFR was primarily thought of as "tourist mode" and that although its good to allow players who would not normally get to see the content, can now see it, it was really supposed to be a stepping stone to build interest in real raiding.

Having said that, do you believe Blizzard will continue to "try things out" to see if they resonate with the player base or not? Or, do you think they are now trying to bring the game back to the proven model where subscribers were at their peak (in TBC and WotLK)?

Welfare epics is never a good idea. I think Blizzard gets that, but they have to keep some welfare ways to obtain purples for the lesser skilled players. There is no free lunch, no matter how much people think there should be.

I think Wotlk is when this started creeping in, and beyond that it never recovered, and yes I think they are making a small step to bring it back to the vanilla/bc type of progression. Although there are elements of the game now that would prevent it from completely going back to a BC type of model.

[Shardik]

I'd prefer if LFR could still have tier set art, just without the set bonus, if that would make higher ups happy. If I miss out on completing my set before the guild moves on to the next tier, I just won't be able to get the look anymore. Even BC had welfare Tier gear look alikes, in season 1-3 armor sets.

[Stormspellz]

so sick of the "welfare" term being thrown at everything.

[Jaylock]

I'd prefer if LFR could still have tier set art, just without the set bonus, if that would make higher ups happy. If I miss out on completing my set before the guild moves on to the next tier, I just won't be able to get the look anymore. Even BC had welfare Tier gear look alikes, in season 1-3 armor sets.

Yeah the welfare look alikes were PVP gear sets. They decided to separate PvP gear looks from PvE in Wotlk, and I really liked the separation. I think further separation from LFR was a step in the right direction for WoD too because it gives players distinct goals to look forward to and achieve instead of receiving welfare tier sets within LFR itself.

[Mammoon]

I'd prefer if LFR could still have tier set art, just without the set bonus, if that would make higher ups happy. If I miss out on completing my set before the guild moves on to the next tier, I just won't be able to get the look anymore. Even BC had welfare Tier gear look alikes, in season 1-3 armor sets.

I think the TBC sets were more of just Blizzard being lazy and not wanting to design PvP armor sets at the time. Also, for the majority of Wrath you could only vendor 1-2 pieces of tier through badges and trying to vendor a full set of tier through badges (during ToC and ICC) was nearly impossible for a non-raider because of the abysmally low amount of badges you would get if you didn't raid (like 2 a day? One piece of tier costed like 50+?).

Also, Flex is really easy. It will be even easier once it isn't "current content" anymore. People who want tier sets for the looks will have a chance to get them, they just might have to put a little effort into it (gasp) and join a group of people they don't know (god forbid).

[RickJamesLich]

I personally am glad they are taking it easy with the welfare items, it gets to a point where it's not really interesting earning new loot, and in some cases you are almost expected to already have it anyways since it's so easy to obtain. Especially with the legendary welfare cloak, it made me want to avoid rolling an alt, because if I ever get to a serious form of raiding with the toon, people will expect me to have my legendary, but on the flip side, the quest was so long to endure I didn't feel like doing it again lol.

I think the game should provide more opportunities for loot from things that take skill, and stuff like LFR has a place for guys that just aren't good at raiding or guys that don't have much time, but handing out tier sets seems overboard. After all, a guy can go afk in LFR and win a full tier set, while another guy that is playing well can go months without completing his set, and the only difference between the two is luck on drops really. I think that creates a bad formula for the game.

[Xeraxis]

Yeah the welfare look alikes were PVP gear sets. They decided to separate PvP gear looks from PvE in Wotlk, and I really liked the separation. I think further separation from LFR was a step in the right direction for WoD too because it gives players distinct goals to look forward to and achieve instead of receiving welfare tier sets within LFR itself.

Right because your average LFR'er is going to clear a wing of LFR then think to themselves, 'Damn better go look for a Mythic guild so I can upgrade out of these LFR pieces!'

[Stonecloak]

Yeah the welfare look alikes were PVP gear sets. They decided to separate PvP gear looks from PvE in Wotlk, and I really liked the separation. I think further separation from LFR was a step in the right direction for WoD too because it gives players distinct goals to look forward to and achieve instead of receiving welfare tier sets within LFR itself.

Timeless isle was the lowest it could get imo. Free epics for a click. If you look back at vanilla/bc and the way epics were then. Its been a long road to epics meaning almost nothing. That springs to mind something. Wasn't that the philosophy of somebody at Blizz. Didn't they want to eliminate a class of rarity? I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that and it didn't turn out to great of an idea.

[Shardik]

I think the TBC sets were more of just Blizzard being lazy and not wanting to design PvP armor sets at the time. Also, for the majority of Wrath you could only vendor 1-2 pieces of tier through badges and trying to vendor a full set of tier through badges (during ToC and ICC) was nearly impossible for a non-raider because of the abysmally low amount of badges you would get if you didn't raid (like 2 a day? One piece of tier costed like 50+?).

Also, Flex is really easy. It will be even easier once it isn't "current content" anymore. People who want tier sets for the looks will have a chance to get them, they just might have to put a little effort into it (gasp) and join a group of people they don't know (god forbid).

Thats true, I keep forgetting about the new group finder system they got coming, should really help with running older stuff.

[Darsithis]

I just want the fucking stupid term "welfare epics" to die in a fire.

Just because there are routes to obtain lesser gear it isn't welfare. You still have to earn it. Admittedly, the bar for getting it is considerably lower than normal or heroic mode raiding, but there is work involved. From the time it took to level to 90 to gearing up (no matter how fast) through Timeless Isle and then through wipes in LFR until you finally get all that shiny item level 528 gear you earned it.

Stop trying to label it. Stop trying to make people feel bad about themselves because they're not raiding heroic modes 24/7. Just stop. You're the cause of such a shitty community. You're the one making it bad.

[Deleted]

well Wod sure seems like they're trying to get back the roots so to say, we'll see how it turns out, after Mope and Cataclysm it can only get better though, so there is some light at the end of the tunnel I guess. I just hope wod will have a more exciting story than mop, no faction war bullshit etc.

[RickJamesLich]

I just want the fucking stupid term "welfare epics" to die in a fire.

Just because there are routes to obtain lesser gear it isn't welfare. You still have to earn it. Admittedly, the bar for getting it is considerably lower than normal or heroic mode raiding, but there is work involved. From the time it took to level to 90 to gearing up (no matter how fast) through Timeless Isle and then through wipes in LFR until you finally get all that shiny item level 528 gear you earned it.

Stop trying to label it. Stop trying to make people feel bad about themselves because they're not raiding heroic modes 24/7. Just stop. You're the cause of such a shitty community. You're the one making it bad.

I think the "earn it" thing is the cause for the disagreement, I can tell you that a lot of players that left that come back that I have known are like "whoa, you get gear for doing nothing" these days in WoW. In vanilla and BC, you had to grind out reputations for example that would normally take about a month just to get maybe one item you could use. Now you can pretty much queue up and you're pretty likely to get an item just by sheer luck, even if you afk in LFR. I think the fact that LFR is afk'able is almost necessary, but on the flip side people can't expect to get respect from players that do higher levels of content. It's just not gonna happen, it hasn't happened yet and likely never will.

[Darsithis]

I think the "earn it" thing is the cause for the disagreement, I can tell you that a lot of players that left that come back that I have known are like "whoa, you get gear for doing nothing" these days in WoW. In vanilla and BC, you had to grind out reputations for example that would normally take about a month just to get maybe one item you could use. Now you can pretty much queue up and you're pretty likely to get an item just by sheer luck, even if you afk in LFR. I think the fact that LFR is afk'able is almost necessary, but on the flip side people can't expect to get respect from players that do higher levels of content. It's just not gonna happen, it hasn't happened yet and likely never will.

Good for classic! That's in the past, where it belongs, like a lot of things through human history. If we always sat in the past we'd never progress. Cars get faster and safer. Computers increase in power and speed. More and more devices show up that make our lives easier. I'm a developer today and I develop with high-level languages to rapidly design software to fit business needs. Am I suddenly a welfare developer because I don't program in assembly code like they did back in 1970?

As for people abusing LFR by afking, well, that's happened through history in World of Wacraft. People have AFK'd through everything and sometimes won things. That doesn't make the premise of LFR or the rewards welfare, it just makes the person a dick.

[Deleted]

I agree it's a stupid term. I think what annoys people is the high amount of shitters in lfr who hit the boss once and then go afk for the duration of the fight and without any effort whatsoever being carried by other players who at least did put some effort into pressing buttons fast. These mentioned shitters didn't do any work whatsoever for their gear.

[Stonecloak]

I just want the fucking stupid term "welfare epics" to die in a fire.

Just because there are routes to obtain lesser gear it isn't welfare. You still have to earn it. Admittedly, the bar for getting it is considerably lower than normal or heroic mode raiding, but there is work involved. From the time it took to level to 90 to gearing up (no matter how fast) through Timeless Isle and then through wipes in LFR until you finally get all that shiny item level 528 gear you earned it.

Stop trying to label it. Stop trying to make people feel bad about themselves because they're not raiding heroic modes 24/7. Just stop. You're the cause of such a shitty community. You're the one making it bad.

Just relax,

Leveling isn't really a reason to get epics. The reward for leveling is to level, and get to max level. Raiding in LFR as described by people wanting to keep tier gear, is that it's hard because of reasons raiding should never be hard. Waiting, and having to endure people that can't even pull their own weight isn't a mechanic to justify a reward. The reward should be from systematically taking down a boss. This obviously varies between difficulties with flex(the new normal) and up, and flex will be easy enough so that players don't even have to be "great" to participate. The people who do good and decent in LFR should make the jump to flex. I'ts not much more of an effort. I would even argue epics shouldn't be included in factions, but they will again probably. The crafting of epic items makes sense. Now, LFR is getting rewards, but rewards relevant to the difficulty. I wouldn't even mind if it gave out blue quality items. That would be a step at making epics epic again.

[crakerjack]

I just want the fucking stupid term "welfare epics" to die in a fire.

Just because there are routes to obtain lesser gear it isn't welfare. You still have to earn it. Admittedly, the bar for getting it is considerably lower than normal or heroic mode raiding, but there is work involved. From the time it took to level to 90 to gearing up (no matter how fast) through Timeless Isle and then through wipes in LFR until you finally get all that shiny item level 528 gear you earned it.

Stop trying to label it. Stop trying to make people feel bad about themselves because they're not raiding heroic modes 24/7. Just stop. You're the cause of such a shitty community. You're the one making it bad.

If you're an athlete and you're competing in the high jump, would you consider jumping over a bar raised an inch above the ground challenging? That's pretty much what LFR is... a group of 25 players can under perform and STILL get loot. That's not earning, that's being given, just like welfare checks from the government... Hence, welfare epics.

[RickJamesLich]

Good for classic! That's in the past, where it belongs, like a lot of things through human history. If we always sat in the past we'd never progress. Cars get faster and safer. Computers increase in power and speed. More and more devices show up that make our lives easier. I'm a developer today and I develop with high-level languages to rapidly design software to fit business needs. Am I suddenly a welfare developer because I don't program in assembly code like they did back in 1970?

As for people abusing LFR by afking, well, that's happened through history in World of Wacraft. People have AFK'd through everything and sometimes won things. That doesn't make the premise of LFR or the rewards welfare, it just makes the person a dick.

Definitely agree the game needs change and many of the changes have been good. I think with the welfare term, it in some ways stems from blizzard philosophy "every time I log in I should be able to get an upgrade".... I've seen blizz use this quote in some form or another a lot of times, not verbatim, but it basically suggests that players should never have to build up and work to get a reward. Rather you should get one if you log in and play for 30 minutes.

Obviously there are certain people that play different styles, I think for long time players though, it almost feels like the game is "watered down" or you are cheating by being handed items that were so easy to obtain. And I do agree from the technical perspective, they did require effort to get, but I think compared to how past items were obtained, it feels lack luster. In many cases with places like LFR, you don't have to know the mechanics or play properly but you will get rewarded.... which just seems really weird, even if it means "everyone can get loot". I think the vanilla system obviously had problems, as it was too difficult, but I think many would also agree that the new system is off too, perhaps there is a better level of balance?

[Jayjayhey]

I just want the fucking stupid term "welfare epics" to die in a fire.

Just because there are routes to obtain lesser gear it isn't welfare. You still have to earn it. Admittedly, the bar for getting it is considerably lower than normal or heroic mode raiding, but there is work involved. From the time it took to level to 90 to gearing up (no matter how fast) through Timeless Isle and then through wipes in LFR until you finally get all that shiny item level 528 gear you earned it.

Stop trying to label it. Stop trying to make people feel bad about themselves because they're not raiding heroic modes 24/7. Just stop. You're the cause of such a shitty community. You're the one making it bad.

Haha, except it won't because it's true. It's called welfare because in LFR you do not have to do anything to win. If you lose, you get free buffs to continue. I'm very happy that LFR won't drop tier, I'm so happy. You players don't deserve it.

[Jaylock]

Right because your average LFR'er is going to clear a wing of LFR then think to themselves, 'Damn better go look for a Mythic guild so I can upgrade out of these LFR pieces!'

You dont have to be in a "mythic" guild to have gear progression. Normal and heroic in WoD will use flex tech and it will be massively easier than mythic, obviously. But i guess all you can see is LFR and Mythic, you just ignore everything in between dontcha?