gaurdian dps tips

[baskev]

Hi all,

i am a gaurdian tank thats currently doing hc progress. ( wasnt there for malkorok kill) but am at nazgarim and did serveral try's on spoils.
Only my gear is getting really nice. i am currently at a point that i can take a crap load of damage and still live on the farm bosses. But my dps as tank is very bad. So i am here to ask some advice.
couple of things before my questions: 1, i am not the main tank, 2 i used 2 be a healer so kinda a save player ( rather use frezied regn then maul) ( wich is should use more for dps :P) and offcourse i change my talents for certian bosses. for instance if i know i cant go Hearth of the wild + kitty form ( or cast HotW + tranq) i go for dream of cenarius
and so far you guys and gals have been great advice.

my armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Santeri/simple

so things i noticed or people are talking about. wich i cant find a straight anwser ( or clear one for).
- drop 1 trinket and try to go for a dps trinket ( agilithy cleave one?) ( and offcourse vail if it ever drops )
- some people say meta gem (legendary tank one) isnt that great for druids. any sites or forums post explaining that? is cleave gem better
- dps legendary cloak on farm bosses offcourse ( still need 2 get that).
- as you see. i am at the crit cap. i here allot of people say still go crit. but dps wise what is better agilithy vs haste vs crit. ( dodnt worry about rage....more then enough of that)
because my though is: haste is also rage and gcd reducer, but agilithy gives Ap, and crit they say looses allot after 79%
- is dream in fights kitty/tranq + HotW better. because i tryd it so far not allot of difference

any other tips or things you notice please tell
and ty lovely lads and ladys in advance

[Dreyen]

For dps, you want to use nature's vigil, its indefintely betetr than dream of cenarius, and definitely better than hotw on taunt swaps, equivalent on everything else... Hotw+Catform is not really good honestly.
You want to go all-out crit, even past 79%, its a white hit crit cap, not special attacks, which is your main source of damage.
Legendary tank meta is amazing, the dps one is about 6-7% dps though. The tank cloak however isn't as amazing... it's only good if it saves you from dieing. DPS cloak gives you similar stats and a lot of dps. (6-7% again)
You definitely want to use maul on cooldown to do high dps.

For trinkets, iron jugg's crystal is really, really bad. If you want great dps trinkets, get haromm's + Thok's tail tip. If you want survival, go for vial of living corruption + haromm's or ticking ebon detonator.

[Raugnaut]

For dps, get the shaman or the siegecrafter trinket, both of those are good dps increase.

Tanking meta is 100% needed for tanks. it is very large damage reduction.

DPS Cloak is 10% of my damage on average.

For dps, Crit>>>>>Haste>Agility. Agility provides very, very little dps increase. DPS wise, go 103% crit then haste. Rage gen wise go 76% or so crit then haste.

Haste only increase auto-attack speed. 1% haste = .2% or so dps increase.
Crit increases crit chance. 1% crit = 1% dps increase. It looses rage generation value after 76%.
Agility increase Attack Power by 2 per agility. You will have 200k+ agility on most boss fights. 320 attack power is small, tiny drop in bucket. Agility <.1% dps increase per gem.

So for dps, go 103% crit, then haste. Get legendary dps cloak, big dps increase. DPS gem is very small. If you don't care about taking less damage, get normal Primal Diamond, Agi+crit damage%, is much bigger dps boost. Use Maul on Cooldown- Using Maul on cooldown compared to not using Maul on cooldown is 10-15% dps boost.

For talents, if you do not care about healing of talents, pick Gift of the Forest (+15% mangle damage) and, until you hit 93% crit change, Dream of Cenarious (For crit increase, not healing. Do not use Healing Touch if you pick Dream of Cenarious). After 93% crit chance, pick Nature's Vigil, use on CD. (If you want healing, use Nature's Vigil anyway, is good for raid healing). Do not use Heart of the Wild for DPS, is worst talent.

[Dreyen]

Haste being better than agi sounds pretty wrong to me.. dont think a haste gem is 1% haste either. Agi is crit too :P

[Raugnaut]

Haste being better than agi sounds pretty wrong to me.. dont think a haste gem is 1% haste either. Agi is crit too :P

A haste gem gives 480 haste rating for a bear, which is about .75% haste. An Agi gem gives 180 agi, which is 320 attack power, and bout 90 crit rating worth of crit chance. If you are crit CAPPED, it only gives 320 attack power. While thats good for dps classes, it is NOT that good for tanks, due to the massive amount of AP we get naturally. Thus, Haste is the second best dps stat after 103% crit chance due to that.

[adynn]

Haste being better than agi sounds pretty wrong to me.. dont think a haste gem is 1% haste either. Agi is crit too :P

You have to remember that a lot of tanks' AP ratios are tuned pretty low as we get a huge amount of AP from vengeance.

[Dreyen]

Guess it might be fair enough.. though i dont think many people reach 103% crit yet :P then again im not full bis and im not gonna be full 4/4 upgrade anytime soon... need to upgrade my boomkin spec first

[rated]

But my dps as tank is very bad. So i am here to ask some advice.

How is it bad ? Do you have logs ? Because...

i am not the main tank,

This is a pretty telling reason why


Your gear looks legit, so unless you're doing something crazy wrong....post some logs !

[adynn]

I probably should actually address your OP >.<

Only my gear is getting really nice. i am currently at a point that i can take a crap load of damage and still live on the farm bosses. But my dps as tank is very bad. So i am here to ask some advice.

I also have to ask what kind of damage you're doing. If you're three tanking H shamans and you're up the top, that can give a good baseline of if a tank knows their rotation as you'll be on ~200k vengeance for most of the fight.

couple of things before my questions: 1, i am not the main tank

If the other tank is an aggro whore or is tanking for a significantly longer period of time than you are, that will make them do a lot more damage due to higher vengeance uptime.

2 i used 2 be a healer so kinda a save player ( rather use frezied regn then maul) ( wich is should use more for dps :P)

Nothing wrong with a tank being safe, it's much better to do 15% less dps (between say mauls and dps cloak) and never really die than pushing damage and causing wipes. If you're doing actually terrible dps then it's not going to be a matter of not spamming maul enough anyway.

and offcourse i change my talents for certian bosses. for instance if i know i cant go Hearth of the wild + kitty form ( or cast HotW + tranq) i go for dream of cenarius
and so far you guys and gals have been great advice.

Other people have already talked about this, however I use NV on pretty much all fights (and try to time it so that you incarnation/berserk inside NV). This brings me to a tangential point; if you want to maximise your damage, save incarnation/berserk for periods where you know you'll have high vengenace (often this just means not popping them if you aren't currently tanking).

so things i noticed or people are talking about. wich i cant find a straight anwser ( or clear one for).
- drop 1 trinket and try to go for a dps trinket ( agilithy cleave one?) ( and offcourse vail if it ever drops )

For damage, Haromm's is clearly BiS this tier, I usually run Thok's as my second trinket and keep them both in unless I specifically need another (say if solo tanking Malk). Agi cleave trinket is pretty meh, I wouldn't recommend it other than maybe playing around on Galakras (even then it's not super amazing). As guardian in 10m you don't need defensive trinkets for most fights once you're at a decent gear level (although they are good to have on fights that kick your dick in).

I would guess using dps trinkets and cape would be an easy 50k dps.

- some people say meta gem (legendary tank one) isnt that great for druids. any sites or forums post explaining that? is cleave gem better

Don't use the melee meta unless you're gunning for rankings, the tank meta is really, really strong.

- dps legendary cloak on farm bosses offcourse ( still need 2 get that).

Yes, however note that if you die on a fight where you had the dps cloak on instead of the tank cloak, that generally means you made a mistake.

- as you see. i am at the crit cap. i here allot of people say still go crit. but dps wise what is better agilithy vs haste vs crit. ( dodnt worry about rage....more then enough of that)

This has been answered, Crit>>>haste>agi. Haste is honestly pretty balls for guardian damage at the moment due to it affecting sweet fuck all and AP gemming on tanks is shit.

because my though is: haste is also rage and gcd reducer, but agilithy gives Ap, and crit they say looses allot after 79%

Haste only reduces the gcd of spells (so FF).

- is dream in fights kitty/tranq + HotW better. because i tryd it so far not allot of difference

As I said before, NV is mostly the best talent on the tier. If you have shitty healers I would think about DoC due to being able to full heal dps with HT's if you have vengeace. HotW is only really useful on IJ imo as you can do ~250k hps in one phase 2 with it (between tranq and spamming rejuv from bear form).

any other tips or things you notice please tell

Your priority:

Mangle>lacerate>FF>thrash for single target, this assumes lacerate/thrash dots are on the target. Honestly if you aren't mauling a lot in our current gear you must either be overhealing a ton with FR or rage capping a lot. I'm going to guess it's the former in which case my advice is to just get used to the damage patterns of each boss so you know when you want to use FR (although in current gear the answer to that is also nearly all the time :P).

[Deleted]

For damage,Is not better use double amp trinket?

With 95% aprox crit

[Arielle]

For damage,Is not better use double amp trinket?

With 95% aprox crit

No.

Haromm's is always your #1 DPS trinket. #2 is either Cleave or Amp depending on the fight.

[baskev]

most recent world of logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r943c1kqigvta3q8/

adynn:
- logs for dps: only problem is on top i need 2 hold back. have a less decent geared paladin tank ( thats ussaly our dps or the monk tank). in both cases if have over aggrod the boss back and ending up with 2 many stacks.

- yup i counted in that not being the main tank means i wont have as high a vengance as the main tank. ( and i should try to use cd ( dps ones) more on high veneange)

- Cape i am going to get a extra one next week. as for the trinkets....its been a half year of coin rolling etc on certian trinkets and still dodnt have any.

- okay. 103%...if i look at the BiS gear ( all leather gear with crit) i think i will hit 93% if i gem mabye a bit higher. but if i look in game i have the following stats:
crit: 79%
mastery: 25%
haste: 31% ( with 5% buff).




extra questions:
is their a adviced haste/mastery level: for example 25% or something like that?


and again ty for the help so far. i have treid it out. and pulled some nicer dps this way .

and btw our lastest shammans kill was....kinda weird. downstairs tank died at 5 to 7% hp.
so we upstairs with 1 healer dead ran downstairs and "normal tactic" killed it.

[teddabear]

Since your 10 man your DPS matters or else I'd say just stick with being unkillable. My advice would be Malk trinket, Harroms trinket and DPS cloak. Gem and reforge for crit, if you can't reforge for crit reforge for haste.

Stop attacking and turn off your auto-attack during tank switches.

I can't recommend Maul except for certain situations, like burning down the wolves on the Shamans pull. Don't overdo it going for max DPS. Check with your healers, knowing they can wait a second or 2 to heal you up can save your fellow raiders lives.

[coocoo]

If you want to milk every possible little dps you can, Symbiosis shaman for Lightning Shield.
Only 11/14 hc progress here but am using dps meta+cloak on 9 of those (using tank meta+cloak on Malkorok + Thok).
Dps cloak has been worth 6-10.5% of my damage, while dps meta has been 5-7.5%, Haromm's multistrike are around 5%, Lightning Shield 3-4%.

[Tower]

I would not use the dps meta personally, would throw off your crit levels by quite a bit if you planned on switching between helms for different fights. The regular agile primal diamond is probably better anyways with the increased crit damage. Just my opinion.

[Dreyen]

I would not use the dps meta personally, would throw off your crit levels by quite a bit if you planned on switching between helms for different fights. The regular agile primal diamond is probably better anyways with the increased crit damage. Just my opinion.

lol no.

Legendary meta is like 6-8% more dps, 3% more crit damage is nowhere near that. Pretty sure the lightning strike can crit..

[Deleted]

Why has no one mentioned the disturbing lack of Mangle in the logs?

On Sha you used it 40 times while you could have used it 53 times with just the 6 seconds cooldown. Now to the amount of times that it would have procced had you played perfectly. I'd wager that's around 18 more. So why did it only proc 11 times then? Your Lacerate and Thrash uptime was only 80% while it should have been way higher. Your mangle was only on cooldown 75% of the time. You NEVER used faerie fire.
Oh and even more important: Your dps cooldowns. No Incarnation used and no Berserk used.

Fix those issues. That is way more important than gear. Once you've done that though you need to replace those two horrible trinkets of yours. Then you can think about using the dps cape. Also you mention using Frenzied Regeneration over Maul; don't do that unless you've lost a lot of health and if Maul has procced. Preventing the damage is way more important for a tank: your healers will verify this. If you're on full health you might as well use maul as long as you still have rage for whatever else you need it for. I see that you have done Spoils already. Congratulations to that, but you really were being carried. (No offence, I hope this motivates you to do better)

[Tower]

lol no.

Legendary meta is like 6-8% more dps, 3% more crit damage is nowhere near that. Pretty sure the lightning strike can crit..

Then feel free to use the dps meta? My co tank who is also a bear uses that and I don't usually find myself below him, despite the fact that he also has a warforged weapon. I don't actually use a primal diamond since the tanking meta is much more handy for tanking, that was just my thoughts on the matter.

[Trubo]

Guess it might be fair enough.. though i dont think many people reach 103% crit yet :P then again im not full bis and im not gonna be full 4/4 upgrade anytime soon... need to upgrade my boomkin spec first

The reason you go Haste over Crit after 79% Crit in Bear Form is because, at that point, you gain more rage per point of Haste than from additional points in Crit. From a damage perspective Crit is still the strongest stat to take. You never gem Agility except maybe if you have a Red socket in your helm and you can' reforge more Expertise away. Only exception I can think of would be if the helm granted a +180 Crit bonus but none in SoO do that.

Then feel free to use the dps meta? My co tank who is also a bear uses that and I don't usually find myself below him, despite the fact that he also has a warforged weapon. I don't actually use a primal diamond since the tanking meta is much more handy for tanking, that was just my thoughts on the matter.

Even with a reduced proc chance the damage legendary meta > all others for tank damage purposes especially since you generally want to go Haste > Crit after reaching 79% Crit in Bear Form due to it being a RPPM thing.

It worth the cost of 5 primal diamonds? For progression I'd imagine it would be but farm, meh.

[Dreyen]

Then feel free to use the dps meta? My co tank who is also a bear uses that and I don't usually find myself below him, despite the fact that he also has a warforged weapon. I don't actually use a primal diamond since the tanking meta is much more handy for tanking, that was just my thoughts on the matter.

Don't really understand your post... You're saying the 3% crit meta is better, i say it's not, and then you say it doesn't matter? Unless you meant to say you'd rather use the tanking legendary meta all along.. which didn't sound like that in your main post.

The reason you go Haste over Crit after 79% Crit in Bear Form is because, at that point, you gain more rage per point of Haste than from additional points in Crit. From a damage perspective Crit is still the strongest stat to take. You never gem Agility except maybe if you have a Red socket in your helm and you can' reforge more Expertise away. Only exception I can think of would be if the helm granted a +180 Crit bonus but none in SoO do that.

Yea i knew that, i'm just surprised that haste, being only 10-20% of your damage, is better than agi past 103% crit.