Heroic Paragons 25

[kilj]

Any tips or tricks to help us out Currently we are only getting to korven. We decided to make 2 groups to handle aims one odds one evens, and designated a order in the line for everyone to stand.

[Deja Thoris]

You get out of these threads what you put in.

Whats killing you, whats your comp?

Only relevant tip I can think of so early is certain classes can make the aim not happen, priests / hunters.

[kilj]

You get out of these threads what you put in.

Whats killing you, whats your comp?

Only relevant tip I can think of so early is certain classes can make the aim not happen, priests / hunters.

Well I was just looking for general tips and strategies on what people were doing to make certain bosses easier as such. Not necessary on what we are doing. But what they have found out to work best.

[Dracodraco]

Can negate aim without soaking:
Priests (spectral guise).
Hunters (feign dead).
Rogues (vanish).
Feral druids (symb->feign dead).
Mages (invisibility).
Monks (90% dmg reduc).

Have the entire melee on the boss, and the entire ranged at max range of the boss. This means Kazroc will spend far more time travelling with his whirling, making it easier to dodge. When amber comes, move as a group with stampeding roar. Have 2x positions for ranged you keep switching between. For example, imagine you're at the entrance of the room:

----------Entrance----------

-----X-----------------Y-----

----W-----------------Z-----

-----------Hisek------------


we keep our ranged in between Y and Z (max range to make dance easier to dodge), and then move to W when amber drops, and back to Y/Z when amber has dropped again, and so forth, while melee stays at X (pretty big safespot/gaps for the dances up there). Ensures that you always know Aim is either going to be on the ranged or the melee. Use warlocks/mages/hunters to soak Aim (they lose little damage as they are ranged, and they are all highly mobile classes with strong defensive capabilities). We have 5 people soak aim, so our disc priest (THATS ME WEEEEE) can rotate spirit shell and inner focus->PoH on the group before every aim, giving them 500K absorb shields on every single one. If you have 2 discs you can just PW:S 2-3 people per priest and not have to try and cast spirit shell etc during Kazroc's whirling (sometimes it's a bitch to get it off in time).

Make sure your tank uses scorpion on Korven, Xaril and Kaztik (assuming it'll come off CD in time for each as you're progressing. It doesn't for us anymore). Make sure a ranged pick up Hiseks' buff and uses it on the bosses, preferably together with the tank going scorpion to stack up the damage.

Good luck.

[Deleted]

You get out of these threads what you put in.

Whats killing you, whats your comp?

Only relevant tip I can think of so early is certain classes can make the aim not happen, priests / hunters.

Also mages, if i remember correctly rogues also?

[EzG]

http://bossblueprint.com/wow/view/sdrYneA8G

Now let me explain:

Skeer is the first to die in our group and he is brought over to the skull marker as soon as the bloods launch which is shortly followed by rikkal after the bloods have given the bosses who have full hp... well more hp. After he dies we kill rikkal followed by korven. During the first 2 bosses the raid is spread around the green area. AIMS are handled by healers and/or people who can solo. Someone above me already listed the soloers so if you have priests in your raid or any healing class with large damage reducers you let them handle the people who cannot solo or mitigate the damage. After the first two are dead we move on to korven and range move to the blue area and the melee to korven who is represented as a moon marker. We then get hisek and korven to 50% pushing hisek first of course then burning korven till dead. The next target is hisek and so on and so forth. Before that is where you are having trouble from the looks of things.

[Dracodraco]

EzG: Why would you decide to push Hisek rather than Locust. Locust has less HP, *and* he is an ideal cleave target (he will lose about 20% hp just by standing next to korven due to incidental cloak procs, tank cleave, howling blast, multidotters for procs etc). It makes no real sense to try and be in range of shooting Hisek (the further away you are, the easier to dodge the dance).
Being spread as you are is also highly inefficient. You have zero control over where amber lands if the raid isn't stacked loosely, which will result in much un needed movement and damage.
Just curious as your tactic seem rather... Incoherent compared to what we do.

[announced]

EzG: Why would you decide to push Hisek rather than Locust. Locust has less HP, *and* he is an ideal cleave target (he will lose about 20% hp just by standing next to korven due to incidental cloak procs, tank cleave, howling blast, multidotters for procs etc). It makes no real sense to try and be in range of shooting Hisek (the further away you are, the easier to dodge the dance).
Being spread as you are is also highly inefficient. You have zero control over where amber lands if the raid isn't stacked loosely, which will result in much un needed movement and damage.
Just curious as your tactic seem rather... Incoherent compared to what we do.

just a fyi. the locust flies around and sometimes korven wont actually "amber" him cause hes outta range. and he'll amber himself instead. then you have a problem. hisek and korven never fly away, so they are both perfect targets to bait the amber with.

warlocks can also soak 1 aim using dark bargain. (well this is true on 10hm it only hits like 1.4m which is a minor 700k dot afterwards). i personally swap to DB just for that purpose.

best kill order ive found is Skeer, Rikkal, Korven, Hisek, Xaril, Kaztik, Iyyokuk, Ka'roz, then Kil'ruk.

make sure to clean up scorpions once rikkal dies.
push korven to 60% and hisek below 50%. u want hisek to be ambered so u can finish off korven.
hero/bloodlust/timewarp when Xaril comes out.

for kaztik, even after hes dead if any member of your raid touches a kunchong they will instantly die. just a fyi. dont touch the kunchongs or run into them.

Iyokkuks lines dont do much damage if your groups are spread out properly, but no one can be in between the lines or its basically instant death. u want ranged at near max distance also keep in mind on the amber since it'll 1 shot people, but overall the fight gets easier and easier once u get used to it.

[EzG]

EzG: Why would you decide to push Hisek rather than Locust. Locust has less HP, *and* he is an ideal cleave target (he will lose about 20% hp just by standing next to korven due to incidental cloak procs, tank cleave, howling blast, multidotters for procs etc). It makes no real sense to try and be in range of shooting Hisek (the further away you are, the easier to dodge the dance).
Being spread as you are is also highly inefficient. You have zero control over where amber lands if the raid isn't stacked loosely, which will result in much un needed movement and damage.
Just curious as your tactic seem rather... Incoherent compared to what we do.

As explained above by the other poster on why hisek is our phony target, hisek is easily taken care of by a few strong ranged dps. Makes it much more simple and we dont have to rely on cleave or running around to get the amber tosser.

As for the actual amber toss, i should have been more specific on the green area, the ranged/healers stand on the north or south of the two bosses that will die at that position, it "usually" spreads the amber out on both sides and sometimes all of them land on one side but big deal, the damage isnt terrible unless you stand in it for several seconds, then the blame gets put on the dps who couldn't move instead of the healer who could keep the target up who only took 1-2 ticks.

The second range stack zone puts all the ambers in that area, and the range is either on the east or west of the 2 bosses tanked there. After those first three are dead the ranged/healers ping pong from east to west, using the center of the room as a point of reference, and vice versa on each throw amber. Incoherent isn't what I would call our strat, but I probably could have explained it in detail.

[Dracodraco]

I have never had issues with Locust not being targetted in... 49 total kills of paragons heroic. If Korven ambered himself, it's always been because we were stupid (and lowered him to 50% before locust). As said, it's a waste of your DPS (especially on a fight that'll probably be a tight check during progress) to try and singletarget two down, rather than cleave them .

[EzG]

I have never had issues with Locust not being targetted in... 49 total kills of paragons heroic. If Korven ambered himself, it's always been because we were stupid (and lowered him to 50% before locust). As said, it's a waste of your DPS (especially on a fight that'll probably be a tight check during progress) to try and singletarget two down, rather than cleave them .

What is the health difference? (serious question)

We used that strat for progression during both 10 and 25 man. It never caused an issue ever believe it or not, unless korven pushed first like you've said. Not saying your strat is worse or better, but it's definitely not the only one. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I checked your logs and our kills are nearly 2 minutes faster than yours. This could be to more dps/etc. but even in your supposed 49 kills you aren't doing the best you could from the looks of it.

[Dracodraco]

What is the health difference? (serious question)

We used that strat for progression during both 10 and 25 man. It never caused an issue ever believe it or not, unless korven pushed first like you've said. Not saying your strat is worse or better, but it's definitely not the only one. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I checked your logs and our kills are nearly 2 minutes faster than yours. This could be to more dps/etc. but even in your supposed 49 kills you aren't doing the best you could from the looks of it.

The health difference is 346M on Hisek, 281M on Kazroc. Far from an insignificant amount.
As for speed of kill, there's a few very, very, VERY obvious reasons for that, which you really should have figured out yourself:
1: You're comparing 10 to 25. Your most recent 25 man kill is 10:51, but let's go with your fastest kill ever (9:33). This is with a bear, by the way, which is by far the strongest tank for Klaxxi due to the fact that they scale the best with the scorpion (as they have a shit-ton of innate crit from their gear, nature's vigil %dmg lasts the entire scorpion), and the fact that they make the raid god damn immortal during the scorpion due to NV. One warrior in top 20, 19 bears. 8 warriors 1 dk 41 bears in top 50. You get the idea.

Anyway, our fastest 25 kill is 9 minutes. We usually carry 1-2 boostees with us through the entire instance, which will slow us down considerably aswell (our 9 min kill we had no buyer lined up).

That said, you really can't compare 10 and 25 man kill times on paragons, because the scorpion completly messes it up. Your bear tank did 1M dps in the 25 man (which was 12.5% of the raids damage). Your bear tank in your fastest 10 man kill (8:14) did 830K dps... Which was about 25% of the raids dps.
There's also the fact that the bosses have a shit-tonne of extra health in 25 man compared to 10. Xaril has 125M hp vs 350M. 125*2.5=312.5 - not 350. Skeer has 142M vs 400M - not 142*2.5=355M.

Same for all the paragons, they have about 2.8 times as much health in 25 - despite the scorpion being far stronger (put it like this: In your 10 man log, the bear went scorpion for Kaztik the manipulator. He shaved off 52.5% of it's health alone. That's right - your tank alone did more dmg than the entire rest of the raid combined because he's a bear and lolscorpion.



So, hopefully that answers why your raid kills Paragons quicker. Feel free to move back to 25 man and smash our kill time without your bear X_x. Or even with it, I guess.

[EzG]

The health difference is 346M on Hisek, 281M on Kazroc. Far from an insignificant amount.
As for speed of kill, there's a few very, very, VERY obvious reasons for that, which you really should have figured out yourself:
1: You're comparing 10 to 25. Your most recent 25 man kill is 10:51, but let's go with your fastest kill ever (9:33). This is with a bear, by the way, which is by far the strongest tank for Klaxxi due to the fact that they scale the best with the scorpion (as they have a shit-ton of innate crit from their gear, nature's vigil %dmg lasts the entire scorpion), and the fact that they make the raid god damn immortal during the scorpion due to NV. One warrior in top 20, 19 bears. 8 warriors 1 dk 41 bears in top 50. You get the idea.

Anyway, our fastest 25 kill is 9 minutes. We usually carry 1-2 boostees with us through the entire instance, which will slow us down considerably aswell (our 9 min kill we had no buyer lined up).

That said, you really can't compare 10 and 25 man kill times on paragons, because the scorpion completly messes it up. Your bear tank did 1M dps in the 25 man (which was 12.5% of the raids damage). Your bear tank in your fastest 10 man kill (8:14) did 830K dps... Which was about 25% of the raids dps.
There's also the fact that the bosses have a shit-tonne of extra health in 25 man compared to 10. Xaril has 125M hp vs 350M. 125*2.5=312.5 - not 350. Skeer has 142M vs 400M - not 142*2.5=355M.

Same for all the paragons, they have about 2.8 times as much health in 25 - despite the scorpion being far stronger (put it like this: In your 10 man log, the bear went scorpion for Kaztik the manipulator. He shaved off 52.5% of it's health alone. That's right - your tank alone did more dmg than the entire rest of the raid combined because he's a bear and lolscorpion.



So, hopefully that answers why your raid kills Paragons quicker. Feel free to move back to 25 man and smash our kill time without your bear X_x. Or even with it, I guess.

I actually forgot that we did 10 man last week instead of 25. My mistake on comparing those numbers.

The fight lasting shorter for us because of the tank, although not by much, is actually relatively even with yours. If you replaced our bear with some other tank class, the dps damage (not raw dps) would be higher and more even with your group because of the relatively longer fight, although 30 odd seconds wouldn't change much. "Higher and even" not meaning "better and more". You have some pretty decent dps and if I wasn't looking at timers instead of raid difficulty I would have caught that. :P

[Dracodraco]

I actually forgot that we did 10 man last week instead of 25. My mistake on comparing those numbers.

The fight lasting shorter for us because of the tank, although not by much, is actually relatively even with yours. If you replaced our bear with some other tank class, the dps damage (not raw dps) would be higher and more even with your group because of the relatively longer fight, although 30 odd seconds wouldn't change much. "Higher and even" not meaning "better and more". You have some pretty decent dps and if I wasn't looking at timers instead of raid difficulty I would have caught that. :P

Fun fact, though - http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...pe=damage-done this is our alt raids' fastest paragons kill. It beats our mains by 6 seconds, and both Zan/Fatalos are *way* undergeared in that log (I'm talking Zan at sub 570 ilvl, and Fatalos at about 573-4) compared to our 25 man (where everyone was basicly +580).
And that was with a *DK* tank.
Now imagine if I'd been a bear, doing 300K dps more .

[Sonrisa]

We also bait Korven's Amber with Hisek, and tank Korven right next to Hisek so we can cleave both, melee have to stop for a bit during rapid fire, which takes significantly less time than Kazroc's running around for whirls and throwing the amber. In the event that we are bad and have to kill Hisek because Korven ambers himself, we bait the amber on Iyokuk and kill Korven. This said, the health amount means it makes more sense to do it on Kazroc, but we just didn't want to deal with him running around or off screen when we needed to push DPS on him or whatever, so chose bait targets that we could always DPS.

For soaking Aims we use a group of 5 people (try to shell/shield them if you can aswell) and ask the tanks to try and get in on the fun as well. This group for us consists of Rogues, Warlocks, and Monks. We've used Mages with Ice Barrier/Temporal Shield when short on people and would use a Feral if we had one. Most aims are a non issue however. One thing to note is to insist melee on being pushed towards the raid (and not to other side of the room) if they are an aim target if they don't want to die. This mostly happens when running out for rapid fire.

[Mini]

Why lower Hisek? Because he doesn't run off to throw his amber and become Immune at almost exactly the same time we need to trigger the amber. I'd trade reliability and repeatability for a slight DPS gain any day. At this point, gear levels are high enough that pure DPS isn't going to be the issue on this fight but rather control and focused execution.

[Qualia]

People mentioned Locust running off to throw amber and become immune to Korven's amber being the reason why they choose Hisek, but what are the odds of that to happen? During all my 28 H-Paragons 25 kills, I have never seen that happened. In my experience, Locust usually jump up to throw the amber early enough so the push for Amber happens between his first jump up and 2nd jump up after Korven lands.

[Imbalanced]

Why lower Hisek? Because he doesn't run off to throw his amber and become Immune at almost exactly the same time we need to trigger the amber. I'd trade reliability and repeatability for a slight DPS gain any day. At this point, gear levels are high enough that pure DPS isn't going to be the issue on this fight but rather control and focused execution.

And not derping in rapid fire

[Sonrisa]

Just tried doing Cleaving Karoz instead of Hisek, and first try gave me another reason to cleave on Hisek: Korven ambered himself, normally we would just kill Hisek, and then Korven on next Paragon. On the other hand killing Karoz there is far from ideal (and most likely a wipe), so cleaving Hisek is yet another safeguard on that regard.

[Qualia]

Just tried doing Cleaving Karoz instead of Hisek, and first try gave me another reason to cleave on Hisek: Korven ambered himself, normally we would just kill Hisek, and then Korven on next Paragon. On the other hand killing Karoz there is far from ideal (and most likely a wipe), so cleaving Hisek is yet another safeguard on that regard.

This may sounds rude (I mean no offense), but if that happens, it fall into the retarded mistake category and even so, it isn't something that happens more than 1 out of 40 tries or so. Should tell the raiders who was still dpsing Korven when he is clearly the lower HP and his HP is below 60% to grow a brain - that's what I did before to my raider when during progression, I had the opportunity of seeing Korven ambered himself while Locust was at 70% - worked like a charm...