Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[petej0]

It helps soothe irrational fear.

Thats the problem, it just becomes a feel good law. Unless you have a task force going door to door enforcing the law it will have little compliance much like all the other minor laws that are broken by everyday people.

[Tinykong]

Your position is untenable (look that up, it might help you later). Myself and everyone else here is done having this conversation with you. Come back when you're feeling rational, ready to apologize and admit error, and we can talk.

So you're just going to make shit up, lie, and then hat tip? I expected more, even from you.

- - - Updated - - -

I've come to realize that he's not in la-la land, cubby. Tiny never admits when he's wrong. Ever. That's his place of residence.

The irony of this coming from you is insane.

[TZucchini]

Can the police enter into any residence with the purpose of enforcing the law?

Sure. Just as a noise violation will provoke a police response, so too will a storage violation. If an anonymous call comes in, police will respond. That's how they enforce laws.

[cubby]

Thats the problem, it just becomes a feel good law. Unless you have a task force going door to door enforcing the law it will have little compliance much like all the other minor laws that are broken by everyday people.

Many laws are like that. I mean, think about it. How many laws are enforceable unless there are police around?

- - - Updated - - -

Sure. Just as a noise violation will provoke a police response, so too will a storage violation. If an anonymous call comes in, police will respond. That's how they enforce laws.

Wow, I didn't think about the anonymous call scenario. Another perfect example. The police don't have to be there, and they are entering the house for the sole purpose of enforcing the safe store law.

But will this end the conversation - tune in and find out!

[Tinykong]

Sure. Just as a noise violation will provoke a police response, so too will a storage violation. If an anonymous call comes in, police will respond. That's how they enforce laws.

So, the 4th amendment doesn't exist anymore.

[cubby]

So you're just going to make shit up, lie, and then hat tip? I expected more, even from you.

The only one lying here is you. We all know it, so do you. Own up to it and we can continue, otherwise, we're done with you.

[Tinykong]

Wow, I didn't think about the anonymous call scenario. Another perfect example. The police don't have to be there, and they are entering the house for the sole purpose of enforcing the safe store law.

But will this end the conversation - tune in and find out!

Please, let's see the legal statute that gives the police the authority to search a residence for safe storage violations based on an anonymous tip.

I'll wait.

- - - Updated - - -

The only one lying here is you. We all know it, so do you. Own up to it and we can continue, otherwise, we're done with you.

The quote doesn't say what you claimed it says, and neither does any other post I've made. If you're going to stick with that, instead of admitting you misspoke, then you are lying.

[TZucchini]

So, the 4th amendment doesn't exist anymore.

Not when consent is given. Not when probably cause is found.

Police arrive at a home due to an anonymous tip of unsafe storage. They get consent or probably cause when responding to the call, and enter the house.

Boom. Your fantasies have been destroyed. Goodnight.

[Tinykong]

Not when consent is given. Not when probably cause is found.

Police arrive at a home due to an anonymous tip of unsafe storage. They get consent or probably cause when responding to the call, and enter the house.

Boom. Your fantasies have been destroyed. Goodnight.

Do people violating the law typical give the police consent to search? Even if so, stupidity does not equal enforcement.

Anonymous tips don't give police probable cause in all cases.

Probably why some states are trying to pass legislation to allow police to conduct warrantless searches to enforce the law (proving enforcement is impossible without it.)

Another nice gem:

"The problem, he said, is that police do not have the authority, granted by a local ordinance, to enforce the law and inspect the safeguarding of guns at the homes of the 600 registered gun owners in town."

[Mistame]

Not when consent is given. Not when probably cause is found.

Police arrive at a home due to an anonymous tip of unsafe storage. They get consent or probably cause when responding to the call, and enter the house.

Boom. Your fantasies have been destroyed. Goodnight.

If you honestly think that someone breaking some "unsafe storage" law is going to give consent or some cop is going to just enter someone's house via probable cause on an "unsafe storage" call, you're high.

[petej0]

Good question. The answer is: you're smart.

You would not believe the number of criminals that are caught for the dumbest fucking reasons on earth. So while you're correctly working out precisely how to get away with never complying with this law, and never getting caught (or making it so remote as to be equal with never), many, many other people are so mentally out there that they will screw up and get caught.

The law is good because people do get caught, all the time, for breaking it. And it's a good law to have, to require people to store their guns safely. Enforcement of any law is always a problem, for any number of reasons.

I am not arguing the validity of the law. I think it is a good law as well. There is just no way to ensure people comply with it.
You have to define what secure storage is. If you are at home and the gun is up on top of a cabinet is that secure enough? Or does the law require it be locked away 24/7?

Police need to have a reason to be at the house to enforce the law which means very little people will feel the need to comply. If you are going to require police ask to check for weapons on every residential visit, then why stop there? There should check for drugs, citizenship status, stolen merchandise, registered and insured cars too.

- - - Updated - - -

Many laws are like that. I mean, think about it. How many laws are enforceable unless there are police around?

I agree, but most of those laws can be enforced on their own. This law cant, the police cant peer into your windows and check for unsecured firearms. The police WONT come to your house just to check your weapons. They have to be there for another reason.

Wow, I didn't think about the anonymous call scenario. Another perfect example. The police don't have to be there, and they are entering the house for the sole purpose of enforcing the safe store law.

But will this end the conversation - tune in and find out!

That does nothing but create a he said/she said.

"We got a call about unsecured weapons, can we check?"
"Uh, one sec... Sure officer....See? All secure."

[TZucchini]

Do people violating the law typical give the police consent to search? Even if so, stupidity does not equal enforcement.

It doesn't matter. It's just another possibility to enforce this law. We've given several instances.

The law is enforceable. Sorry.

[Tinykong]

It doesn't matter. It's just another possibility to enforce this law. We've given several instances.

The law is enforceable. Sorry.

Deliberate ignorance doesn't prove your case, sorry.

It's unenforceable, as proven above. Which is probably why you failed to respond to the rest of the post.

[TZucchini]

Deliberate ignorance doesn't prove your case, sorry.

It's unenforceable, as proven above. Which is probably why you failed to respond to the rest of the post.

As proven above!? Lol. A town of 600 gun owners proves it!

At least I provided a scientific study that surveyed dozens of States.

[Tinykong]

As proven above!? Lol. A town of 600 gun owners proves it!

At least I provided a scientific study that surveyed dozens of States.

To show a tenuous correlative relationship between safe storage laws and total incidents of thefts.

Yes, Massachusetts law makers saying they can't enforce the law proves the law is unenforceable.

Goodnight.

[petej0]

As proven above!? Lol. A town of 600 gun owners proves it!

At least I provided a scientific study that surveyed dozens of States.

The study you linked didnt conclude that the storage laws are the sole reason. They also passed laws requiring pawnshop owners run guns through a database to check their status.

For all we know the reason why less guns were stolen is because they couldnt be sold to pawnshops by those who stole them. Meaning stealing firearms is worthless.

[TZucchini]

Yes, Massachusetts law makers saying they can't enforce the law proves the law is unenforceable.

A single law maker in a small town proposed unwarranted searches of 600 houses = proof that storage laws are unenforceable?

Wow. I always knew science wasn't your best subject, but. Wow.

[Tinykong]

A single law maker in a small town proposed unwarranted searches of 600 houses = proof that storage laws are unenforceable?

Yes, a law maker saying a law is unenforceable proves a law is unenforceable.

Unless the 4th amendment disappeared, the reason why it's unenforceable (which is what has been argued all along) in this case is why it's unenforceable in all cases.

[TZucchini]

Yes, a law maker saying a law is unenforceable proves a law is unenforceable.

A lawmaker, who isn't responsible for enforcement, said a law is unenforceable.

You're taking the word of a politician as provable fact? Yikes.....

- - - Updated - - -

Look! Someone was arrested for negligent storage.

Tiny. Was the law enforced, in that specific instance?

[petej0]

A law forcing people to store the weapons at home is as enforceable as:

a law forcing parents to use socket covers for outlets
a law forcing parents to use gates on stairways to avoid child falls
a law forcing parents to lock up hazardous liquids
a law forcing parents not to leave children unattended in bathtubs
a law forcing people to not swear in front of children
a law forcing people to speak Latin in their home
a law forcing people to use metric in their home
a law forcing people to bolt down their TV's in their home

you get my drift...

If you cant force someone to comply then it is unenforceable, almost by definition. You can only punish them for breaking the law once you catch them (which is tough to do which is why many dont comply to begin with), you cant force them to obey the law.

- - - Updated - - -

Look! Someone was arrested for negligent storage.

Tiny. Was the law enforced, in that specific instance?

It only says he was charged with "negligent storage of a firearm" if the gun was in an locked office would that still qualify as "negligent storage of a firearm"?